Functional Artist
Well-known member
Yup, I'd say it could have been welded
I just figured this would be a good way ta explain the specifics, of a Sleeved Butt Joint
...show where it may be used
...& also, an example of one, in use
Hell-raiser 72V Electric Racing Kart
- Thread starter Functional Artist
- Start date
I just figured this would be a good way ta explain the specifics, of a Sleeved Butt Joint
...show where it may be used
...& also, an example of one, in use
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Steering Bushings
The bushings I'm using on this steering shaft, are actually re-purposed front wheel bushings off of a MTD Yard Machine riding mower.
Their made out of some kind of tough plastic
...for use with/on a 5/8" shaft
...have a nice wide/thick rim
...& even have a grease-able fitting molded in
They can be mounted in a piece of tube welded in place or just in a simple hole
...will provide us with some nice-n-smooth "steering action"
...&/also, will eliminate that annoying metal to metal squeak many go karts "classically" have
The bushings I'm using on this steering shaft, are actually re-purposed front wheel bushings off of a MTD Yard Machine riding mower.
Their made out of some kind of tough plastic
...for use with/on a 5/8" shaft
...have a nice wide/thick rim
...& even have a grease-able fitting molded in
They can be mounted in a piece of tube welded in place or just in a simple hole
...will provide us with some nice-n-smooth "steering action"
...&/also, will eliminate that annoying metal to metal squeak many go karts "classically" have
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
Very unique bushings, never seen that kind of angled zerk fittings before. BTW: While the extra work is more than I would be willing to attempt, the steering setup I saw here before (don't remember who did it) that would come apart completely so shaft and all could be easily R&R'd was the coolest ever. Slap-on double-split locking collars made it completely adjustable and easy as pie, without a bunch of hole drilling, was just a very cool kind of home engineering.
EDIT: Just found that steering setup, it was done by SquidBonez on his Big Block Mini-Buggy...................(19) Full Suspension Big Block Mini-Buggy Build | Page 6 | DIY Go Karts
EDIT: Just found that steering setup, it was done by SquidBonez on his Big Block Mini-Buggy...................(19) Full Suspension Big Block Mini-Buggy Build | Page 6 | DIY Go Karts
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Functional Artist
Well-known member
Now, with the steering shaft mounted
...& the spindle mounts welded on
Next on the agenda would be tie rod ends
...but, first let's check on the "Ackerman"
Ackermann
"Ackermann steering geometry is a geometric arrangement of linkages in the steering of a car or other vehicle designed to solve the problem of wheels on the inside and outside of a turn needing to trace out circles of different radii.
It was invented by the German carriage builder Georg Lankensperger in Munich in 1817, then patented by his agent in England, Rudolph Ackermann (1764–1834) in 1818 for horse-drawn carriages.
The intention of Ackermann geometry is to avoid the need for tyres to slip sideways when following the path around a curve.
A simple approximation to perfect Ackermann steering geometry may be generated by moving the steering pivot points inward so as to lie on a line drawn between the steering kingpins and the centre of the rear axle. The steering pivot points are joined by a rigid bar called the tie rod which can also be part of the steering mechanism, in the form of a rack and pinion for instance. With perfect Ackermann, at any angle of steering, the centre point of all of the circles traced by all wheels will lie at a common point. Note that this may be difficult to arrange in practice with simple linkages, and designers are advised to draw or analyse their steering systems over the full range of steering angles.
Marked the center point of the rear axle
...& tied (2) pieces of string at/around that point (on the axle)
...then, ran 'em up to/across the spindle bolts (up front)
A view from the "bow"
Another view (from the "stern")
According to "The Ackerman Jig", it looks like the "pivot point" (where the tie rod end connects) needs ta be moved "inwards" ~1"
...& the spindle mounts welded on
Next on the agenda would be tie rod ends
...but, first let's check on the "Ackerman"
Ackermann
"Ackermann steering geometry is a geometric arrangement of linkages in the steering of a car or other vehicle designed to solve the problem of wheels on the inside and outside of a turn needing to trace out circles of different radii.
It was invented by the German carriage builder Georg Lankensperger in Munich in 1817, then patented by his agent in England, Rudolph Ackermann (1764–1834) in 1818 for horse-drawn carriages.
The intention of Ackermann geometry is to avoid the need for tyres to slip sideways when following the path around a curve.
A simple approximation to perfect Ackermann steering geometry may be generated by moving the steering pivot points inward so as to lie on a line drawn between the steering kingpins and the centre of the rear axle. The steering pivot points are joined by a rigid bar called the tie rod which can also be part of the steering mechanism, in the form of a rack and pinion for instance. With perfect Ackermann, at any angle of steering, the centre point of all of the circles traced by all wheels will lie at a common point. Note that this may be difficult to arrange in practice with simple linkages, and designers are advised to draw or analyse their steering systems over the full range of steering angles.
Marked the center point of the rear axle
...& tied (2) pieces of string at/around that point (on the axle)
...then, ran 'em up to/across the spindle bolts (up front)
A view from the "bow"
Another view (from the "stern")
According to "The Ackerman Jig", it looks like the "pivot point" (where the tie rod end connects) needs ta be moved "inwards" ~1"
Functional Artist
Well-known member
I used some 1/8" steel ta make a couple of "Ackerman adjustment brackets" (ta go on the spindles)
...& a couple of "dual pivot" pitman arms too (ta go on the steering shaft)
Started off with some "blank slates"
...then did some drillin'
...& then, some shapin'
* All done with simple (mostly Harbor Freight) hand tools (tape measure, scribe, a drill & a variety of bits & a grinder (rough & smooth)
...& some imagination
...& a couple of "dual pivot" pitman arms too (ta go on the steering shaft)
Started off with some "blank slates"
...then did some drillin'
...& then, some shapin'
* All done with simple (mostly Harbor Freight) hand tools (tape measure, scribe, a drill & a variety of bits & a grinder (rough & smooth)
...& some imagination
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
The spindle brackets are a good idea, looks like one bolt hole attaches to 90-degree spindle arm hole, and the other bolt hole attaches to tierods. Maybe the long length is to parallel the spindle arm and weld to it? Or drill another pair of holes to bolt it?
Pitman arm looks like it won't work as is, but you've almost got it. When spreading the tierod bolt holes apart to create Ackermann angle that way, the left tierod end does not go in the left side bolt hole, it reaches across and goes in the right side bolt hole. Vice versa for the other tierod end. Therefore the pitman arm bolt holes have to be shifted North/South enough for the tierods not to hit each other. Like maybe one of them North a 1/2", the other South a 1/2".
Pitman arm looks like it won't work as is, but you've almost got it. When spreading the tierod bolt holes apart to create Ackermann angle that way, the left tierod end does not go in the left side bolt hole, it reaches across and goes in the right side bolt hole. Vice versa for the other tierod end. Therefore the pitman arm bolt holes have to be shifted North/South enough for the tierods not to hit each other. Like maybe one of them North a 1/2", the other South a 1/2".
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Yup
Have you read thru this "sticky" on Ackermann?
...& notice Sid reminds us Ackermann is spelled with (2) n's)
https://www.diygokarts.com/communit...ixes-diagrams-ackerman-angle-explained.23785/
AFAIU once the "Ackermann" is determined, for a specific vehicle then, ya can make the adjustment (either) @ the outer tie rod ends (on the spindles)
...(or) @ the inner tie rod ends (on the pitman arm)
...but, not both
I did this same concept on my Excalibur kart
...& it's the best handling kart I've ever driven
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Here is a "close up" pic of how it looks with the "Ackermann bracket" installed (lines up nicely)
...just need to drill & add another bolt (to lock 'em together)
...& a "step back" view
...just need to drill & add another bolt (to lock 'em together)
...& a "step back" view
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
Sort of agree, why get confused by Ackermann adjustments on inner/outer ends both when one or the other will do, but some might need to use both. In the leading spindle arm setup like yours, a mistaken mismatch of tires to hubs might leave the inside of the front tires too far inward to allow spindle arm enough outward angle for proper Ackermann. Ran into that problem myself.ya can make the adjustment (either) @ the outer tie rod ends (on the spindles)
...(or) @ the inner tie rod ends (on the pitman arm)
...but, not both
Then someone could pick up some spindle arm angle at that end of the tierods, and some more with a crossover of the tierods at the pitman arm.
Functional Artist
Well-known member
I "squared" the spindles & also, the steering shaft so, I could do some measurements, to make up the tie rods
...it required (2) 11" pieces of 5/16 rod with ~1 1/2" of "fine" threads cut onto each end)
When installing the tie rods, I adjusted 'em "toed in" just a bit
Also, to help illustrate the Ackermann steering concept a bit more, I thought
maybe I can do some kind of a visual demo
So, I cut a paper plate in half (just 'cause it was round & paper)
...& drew lines on it @ 45*, 90* & 135* (Angle Gauge)
...& then, "aligned" it under the spindle & stapled it down
A closer view of the "Angle Gauge"
Next, I "traced" along both sides of the spindles @ ~90* & also, @ full turn, left & right (blue ink)
Here is the info, on the port (left) spindle:
....on a full left turn, it turns to ~3/8" above the 45* line
...& then, on a full right turn, it turns to ~7/8" below the 135* line
As can be seen, (on this port (left) spindle)
...when turning left, this "inside tire" turns at a sharper angle
...than, it does when turning right (when it would be the "outside tire")
So, this means that on a left turn, the left "inner" tire would "follow" a smaller circle, than the right "outer" tire
...& then on a right turn, the right "inner" tire would "follow" a smaller circle, than the left "outer" tire
Pic of Angle Guage (with "turn" info) on the port (left) spindle
...it required (2) 11" pieces of 5/16 rod with ~1 1/2" of "fine" threads cut onto each end)
When installing the tie rods, I adjusted 'em "toed in" just a bit
Also, to help illustrate the Ackermann steering concept a bit more, I thought
maybe I can do some kind of a visual demo So, I cut a paper plate in half (just 'cause it was round & paper)
...& drew lines on it @ 45*, 90* & 135* (Angle Gauge)
...& then, "aligned" it under the spindle & stapled it down
A closer view of the "Angle Gauge"
Next, I "traced" along both sides of the spindles @ ~90* & also, @ full turn, left & right (blue ink)
Here is the info, on the port (left) spindle:
....on a full left turn, it turns to ~3/8" above the 45* line
...& then, on a full right turn, it turns to ~7/8" below the 135* line
As can be seen, (on this port (left) spindle)
...when turning left, this "inside tire" turns at a sharper angle
...than, it does when turning right (when it would be the "outside tire")
So, this means that on a left turn, the left "inner" tire would "follow" a smaller circle, than the right "outer" tire
...& then on a right turn, the right "inner" tire would "follow" a smaller circle, than the left "outer" tire
Pic of Angle Guage (with "turn" info) on the port (left) spindle
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Functional Artist
Well-known member
Rim painting tip
Before painting the rims, clean 'em up good (scuff off the gloss (if new) or corrosion (if used)
...& then, mount the tires
...but, don't air them up (yet)
Next, "tuck in" some cardboard (with "half-moon" cut-outs) in-between the rim & tire
...& wipe 'em down, again with degreaser
...then, give 'em a good/nice coat of paint
After their dry, remove the cardboard
...& then, air 'em up
Before painting the rims, clean 'em up good (scuff off the gloss (if new) or corrosion (if used)
...& then, mount the tires
...but, don't air them up (yet)
Next, "tuck in" some cardboard (with "half-moon" cut-outs) in-between the rim & tire
...& wipe 'em down, again with degreaser
...then, give 'em a good/nice coat of paint
After their dry, remove the cardboard
...& then, air 'em up
Denny
Canned Monster
Old playing cards or paper plates work great too. Masking tape stinks.
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Yup, also, good tips
The main point I was getting at (& totally forgot to even mention but, is probably pretty obvious)
...was by mounting the tires before painting, ya virtually eliminate the possibility of damaging your nice/new paint job, during mounting
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
Very kind of you to go to the trouble of clarifying Ackermann with doing the cutout 2D's and taking pictures, way more effective than all of the words I could stitch together.
Perhaps you would be willing to stretch a clearly visible line (clothesline, colored string, etc.) from rear axle center to well beyond the kingpins, with a spindle at 90-degrees, and another inline for Ackermann angle? A little more simplified. You're good at illustrating these concepts.
Perhaps you would be willing to stretch a clearly visible line (clothesline, colored string, etc.) from rear axle center to well beyond the kingpins, with a spindle at 90-degrees, and another inline for Ackermann angle? A little more simplified. You're good at illustrating these concepts.
Functional Artist
Well-known member
No problem, teamwork
I did a quick drawing to help "illustrate" the concept, a bit more
Check out my "crude" little Hellraiser
I added a "scale" along each side of the path, in 1/2" increments
Notice how both the left & right wheels travel the same distance while going straight
...but, when ya enter (in this example) a left turn, the (right) "outer" tire has to travel/follows a much larger circle
...than the left tire does
* This drawing also illustrates why it's so difficult to turn, a kart, with a live axle
...'cause the "outer" tire has to travel a greater distance (thus turning more revolutions)
...& the "inner" tire doesn't have to travel as far (thus turning less revolutions)
...but, being on a solid/live axle, causes binding issues (tire rotation rates are fighting each other)
That's why when turning it's best for the kart to shift its weight a bit allowing the "inner" rear wheel to "lift up" slightly
...so, it kinda "skips/slips around the curve
...then, when ya straighten it out, the weight shifts back, so both rear tires get 100% traction, again
I believe the 2nd pic in post #88 shows that
I did a quick drawing to help "illustrate"
the concept, a bit more Check out my "crude" little Hellraiser
I added a "scale" along each side of the path, in 1/2" increments
Notice how both the left & right wheels travel the same distance while going straight
...but, when ya enter (in this example) a left turn, the (right) "outer" tire has to travel/follows a much larger circle
...than the left tire does
* This drawing also illustrates why it's so difficult to turn, a kart, with a live axle
...'cause the "outer" tire has to travel a greater distance (thus turning more revolutions)
...& the "inner" tire doesn't have to travel as far (thus turning less revolutions)
...but, being on a solid/live axle, causes binding issues (tire rotation rates are fighting each other)
That's why when turning it's best for the kart to shift its weight a bit allowing the "inner" rear wheel to "lift up" slightly
...so, it kinda "skips/slips around the curve
...then, when ya straighten it out, the weight shifts back, so both rear tires get 100% traction, again
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Hey, where did ya get them tires?
Well, I'm glad you asked
After the outrageous cost increase of the rims, I was looking for a "low cost solution" for some "racing slick" type tires
...& found these Carlisle Smooth Tread (slick) Tires at Surplus Center for ~$15.00 ea. (~$60.00 for all 4)
https://www.surpluscenter.com/Wheel...3x6-5-6-Carlisle-Smooth-Tread-Tire-1-5112.axd
SPECIFICATIONS
https://www.amazon.com/Carlisle-512...eywords=carlisle+tires&qid=1652194779&sr=8-25
...& they cost even more, at most shops
I'ma gonna see/test how well they hold up on our Hell-raiser
Well, I'm glad you asked
After the outrageous cost increase of the rims, I was looking for a "low cost solution" for some "racing slick" type tires
...& found these Carlisle Smooth Tread (slick) Tires at Surplus Center for ~$15.00 ea. (~$60.00 for all 4)
https://www.surpluscenter.com/Wheel...3x6-5-6-Carlisle-Smooth-Tread-Tire-1-5112.axd
13x6.5-6 Carlisle Smooth Tread Tire
New, CARLISLE smooth tread turf tire. Model 5121861.Not for Highway Service. Often used on ZTR mowers & Made in the USASPECIFICATIONS
- Size 13x6.50-6
- O.D. 12.9"
- Tread Smooth
- Mounted Width 5.9"
- Rim Width 4.5"
- Tubeless
- Load Rating 480 lbs. @ 28 PSI
- Ply Rating 4
- Ply Material Nylon
- Shpg. 6 lbs.
https://www.amazon.com/Carlisle-512...eywords=carlisle+tires&qid=1652194779&sr=8-25
...& they cost even more, at most shops
I'ma gonna see/test how well they hold up on our Hell-raiser
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Racing kart style pedals
I cut (2) 15" pieces of 3/8" rod
...& rounded their tops
...then, cut ~3/4" of course threads, into the other end
Next step was to mark 'em @ 4", 5" 3" & 3"
...& then, put 'em in the bender (I bent the (2) end bends first, keeping them "in line" then, did the middle bend
* They seemed to come out pretty even
Fabricated some mounts
Mounted 'em on the kart
I cut (2) 15" pieces of 3/8" rod
...& rounded their tops
...then, cut ~3/4" of course threads, into the other end
Next step was to mark 'em @ 4", 5" 3" & 3"
...& then, put 'em in the bender (I bent the (2) end bends first, keeping them "in line" then, did the middle bend
* They seemed to come out pretty even
Fabricated some mounts
Mounted 'em on the kart
Functional Artist
Well-known member
I added/welded on a "tab" I guess ya would call it (or maybe "flange") to each of the pedals
...where the "control rods" or cables will connect
Then, made & installed a control rod for the brake system (3/8" rod connected to a 4 1/2" brake band) mounted on the port nacelle)
...with (2) "guides" (3" pieces of 3/8" tube) welded to the frame
* I had ta route it down under, the port batt pack
...then, have it "kick up" in the back, to align with the brake band
If ya look close, I included a "stop" (so, the brake pedal doesn't/can't "return" too far back, when released
...& a "striker" for a brake light switch
...&/also, a neat (IMO) control rod-to-brake band connector
...where the "control rods" or cables will connect
Then, made & installed a control rod for the brake system (3/8" rod connected to a 4 1/2" brake band) mounted on the port nacelle)
...with (2) "guides" (3" pieces of 3/8" tube) welded to the frame
* I had ta route it down under, the port batt pack
...then, have it "kick up" in the back, to align with the brake band
If ya look close, I included a "stop" (so, the brake pedal doesn't/can't "return" too far back, when released
...& a "striker" for a brake light switch
...&/also, a neat (IMO) control rod-to-brake band connector
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
Getting the cut-to-length keystocks is what I do also, but why are the whole 12" long pieces mounted on that rear axle?
Kartorbust
Well-known member
As long as they are locked down, the keys should hold the torque better across the whole axle, rather than say a 4 or 6 inch section. Less chances of the keys snapping and the key ways getting messed up.