Functional Artist
Well-known member
Yup, totally correct
...but, it's a solid door, from like an old factory or something (seems ta hold the screws pretty good)
Hell-raiser 72V Electric Racing Kart
- Thread starter Functional Artist
- Start date
...but, it's a solid door, from like an old factory or something (seems ta hold the screws pretty good)
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
Can give you the phone # for my spinal injections guy if you need to move that heavy solid core door around by yourself. Maybe not because of the weight, but from reaching across and snatching it up like a patio table that needs moving.
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Um...OK
I tacked all connections, on both sides (forward & aft)
...then, welded 'er up good
Next, remover 'er from the "jig"
...flipped 'er over
...turned 'er around
...re-fitted 'er in the "jig"
...strapped 'er down again
...& then, welded up the other side good, too
I tacked all connections, on both sides (forward & aft)
...then, welded 'er up good
Next, remover 'er from the "jig"...flipped 'er over
...turned 'er around
...re-fitted 'er in the "jig"
...strapped 'er down again
...& then, welded up the other side good, too
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Ima thinkin' about doin' a "dual purpose cross bar/front seat mount"
Anyone think this would/could this cause any problems?
* Most racing style kart frames are mostly 2D (2 dimensional)
...& this "dual purpose cross bar/front seat mount" would give it some 3D'ness
...& here is a side view
Anyone think this would/could this cause any problems?
* Most racing style kart frames are mostly 2D (2 dimensional)
...& this "dual purpose cross bar/front seat mount" would give it some 3D'ness
...& here is a side view
Denny
Canned Monster
As long as the frame still is able to flex for lifting a rear tire in turns. Remember it has to lift its leg like a boy dog!
Functional Artist
Well-known member
OK, Ima gonna give 'er a try & see if it causes any issues 
I layed out all of the main components (again) to quadruple check the "fitment" of everything, before moving on
Yup, everything looks pretty good, to me
I layed out all of the main components (again) to quadruple check the "fitment" of everything, before moving on
Yup, everything looks pretty good, to me
Functional Artist
Well-known member
As seen in the previous post/pic, I made up a couple of motor mount "slider brackets"
...& mounted 'em up under the mounting bracket, that came with the motor
I also, made up a couple of the same style "slider brackets" for each of the batteries too
...& mounted 'em up under the mounting bracket, that came with the motor
I also, made up a couple of the same style "slider brackets" for each of the batteries too
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Here is a couple of pics of the frame (fresh off of the jig)
Top view
...profile
...& on a bit, of an angle
Top view
...profile
...& on a bit, of an angle
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
The space between where those battery packs go looks like a bit of a squeeze for the caboose, you lose some weight lately?
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Well, it originally was ~12" from inner rail to inner rail
...but, I widened it up to ~14 1/2" between them, inner rails
This gave us a bit of extra room "for the caboose"
...& it should also, help the kart carry the 25 lb. (ea.) batteries better too
* Also & FYI, the solid wood door, go kart frame welding platform/jig (you asked about earlier) seemed to hold up pretty well
Functional Artist
Well-known member
FYI: I'm trying to use many things I learned in this thread
https://www.diygokarts.com/community/threads/formula-sae-fs-ev-kart.44622/
...while planning, designing & constructing this kart
I must confess that I'm NOT goin' "by the book"
...but, using it as more of a "best practice guide"
Give 'er a read
...lots of good/interesting "kart building" info
https://www.diygokarts.com/community/threads/formula-sae-fs-ev-kart.44622/
...while planning, designing & constructing this kart
I must confess that I'm NOT goin' "by the book"
...but, using it as more of a "best practice guide"
Give 'er a read
...lots of good/interesting "kart building" info
Functional Artist
Well-known member
The "book" I was talkin' about (above) is the FORMULA SAE RULES 2022
...provided in a link posted by JT Speed Demon (in the Formula SAE thread, posted above)
https://www.fsaeonline.com/cdsweb/gen/DocumentResources.aspx
...then ya gotta open (click on) 2022 RULES SET/RESOURCES
file:///C:/Users/14195/Downloads/FSAE_Rules_2022_V21%20(1).pdf
Now, lookin' at the "rule book", there's a bunch of stuff that don't really apply to our situation
...but, these sections seem to apply
...& (if your following along) should be useful
GR.4 RULES FORMAT AND USE
GR.4.1 Definition of Terms
• Must - designates a requirement
• Must NOT - designates a prohibition or restriction
• Should - gives an expectation
• May - gives permission, not a requirement and not a recommendation
GR.4.2 Capitalized Terms
Items or areas which have specific definitions or are covered by specific rules are capitalized.
For example, “Rules Questions” or “Primary Structure”
GR.4.3 Headings
The article, section and paragraph headings in these rules are provided only to facilitate reading: they do not affect the paragraph contents.
GR.4.4 Applicability
GR.4.4.1 Unless otherwise designated, all rules apply to all vehicles at all times
GR.4.4.2 Rules specific to vehicles based on their powertrain will be designated as such in the rule text:
• Internal Combustion “IC” or “IC Only”
• Electric Vehicle “EV” or “EV Only”
AD.5.2 Electrical System Officer (EV Only)
The Electrical System Officer (ESO) is responsible for all electrical operations of the vehicle during the event.
AD.5.2.3 Duties of the ESO - see EV.3.1.1
AD.5.3 Electric System Advisor (EV Only)
AD.5.3.1 The Electrical System Advisor (ESA) must be a professionally competent person(s) nominated by the team who can advise on the electrical and control systems that will be integrated into the vehicle. The faculty advisor may also be the ESA if all the requirements below are met.
AD.5.3.2 The ESA must supply details of their experience of electrical and/or control systems engineering as used in the vehicle on the ESO/ESA form for approval by the organizers.
AD.5.3.3 The ESA must be sufficiently qualified to advise the team on their proposed electrical and control system designs based on significant experience of the technology being developed and its implementation into vehicles or other safety critical systems. More than one person may be needed.
AD.5.3.4 The ESA must advise the team on the merits of any relevant engineering solutions. Solutions should be discussed, questioned and approved before they are implemented into the final vehicle design.
AD.5.3.5 The ESA should advise the students on any required training to work with the systems on the vehicle.
AD.5.3.6 The ESA must review the Electrical System Form and to confirm that in principle the vehicle has been designed using good engineering practices.
AD.5.3.7 The ESA must ensure that the team communicates any unusual aspects of the design to the organizers to reduce the risk of exclusion or significant changes being required to pass Technical Inspection.
So, for my (our) purposes, I guess I'm the ESO (Electrical System Officer)
&
I'd say Sid would be my (our) ESA (Electrical System Advisor)
...but, he's currently (electrical pun) MIA (hopefully to return sometime soon)
...provided in a link posted by JT Speed Demon (in the Formula SAE thread, posted above)
https://www.fsaeonline.com/cdsweb/gen/DocumentResources.aspx
...then ya gotta open (click on) 2022 RULES SET/RESOURCES
file:///C:/Users/14195/Downloads/FSAE_Rules_2022_V21%20(1).pdf
Now, lookin' at the "rule book", there's a bunch of stuff that don't really apply to our situation
...but, these sections seem to apply
...& (if your following along) should be useful
GR.4 RULES FORMAT AND USE
GR.4.1 Definition of Terms
• Must - designates a requirement
• Must NOT - designates a prohibition or restriction
• Should - gives an expectation
• May - gives permission, not a requirement and not a recommendation
GR.4.2 Capitalized Terms
Items or areas which have specific definitions or are covered by specific rules are capitalized.
For example, “Rules Questions” or “Primary Structure”
GR.4.3 Headings
The article, section and paragraph headings in these rules are provided only to facilitate reading: they do not affect the paragraph contents.
GR.4.4 Applicability
GR.4.4.1 Unless otherwise designated, all rules apply to all vehicles at all times
GR.4.4.2 Rules specific to vehicles based on their powertrain will be designated as such in the rule text:
• Internal Combustion “IC” or “IC Only”
• Electric Vehicle “EV” or “EV Only”
AD.5.2 Electrical System Officer (EV Only)
The Electrical System Officer (ESO) is responsible for all electrical operations of the vehicle during the event.
AD.5.2.3 Duties of the ESO - see EV.3.1.1
AD.5.3 Electric System Advisor (EV Only)
AD.5.3.1 The Electrical System Advisor (ESA) must be a professionally competent person(s) nominated by the team who can advise on the electrical and control systems that will be integrated into the vehicle. The faculty advisor may also be the ESA if all the requirements below are met.
AD.5.3.2 The ESA must supply details of their experience of electrical and/or control systems engineering as used in the vehicle on the ESO/ESA form for approval by the organizers.
AD.5.3.3 The ESA must be sufficiently qualified to advise the team on their proposed electrical and control system designs based on significant experience of the technology being developed and its implementation into vehicles or other safety critical systems. More than one person may be needed.
AD.5.3.4 The ESA must advise the team on the merits of any relevant engineering solutions. Solutions should be discussed, questioned and approved before they are implemented into the final vehicle design.
AD.5.3.5 The ESA should advise the students on any required training to work with the systems on the vehicle.
AD.5.3.6 The ESA must review the Electrical System Form and to confirm that in principle the vehicle has been designed using good engineering practices.
AD.5.3.7 The ESA must ensure that the team communicates any unusual aspects of the design to the organizers to reduce the risk of exclusion or significant changes being required to pass Technical Inspection.
So, for my (our) purposes, I guess I'm the ESO (Electrical System Officer)
&
I'd say Sid would be my (our) ESA (Electrical System Advisor)
...but, he's currently (electrical pun) MIA (hopefully to return sometime soon)
Last edited:
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Keep in mind, these rules are for big, powerful, "adult size" karts
...but, like I mentioned earlier, should be great as a "best practice guide"
Here is some more pertinent info, notice all of the "must"(s)
...& some of my/our deviations from the "rules"
Like for ex: wheelbase of 1525 mm = 60" aka 5'
...& the wheelbase on the Hellraiser kart will be more like 48" aka 4'
...&/or suspension
* Ima not tryin' ta post a bunch of boring technical stuff (skipped over most of that)
...just the IMO "important stuff"
V - VEHICLE REQUIREMENTS
V.1 CONFIGURATION The vehicle must be open wheeled and open cockpit (a formula style body) with four wheels that are not in a straight line. V.1.1 Open Wheel
Open Wheel vehicles must satisfy all of the following criteria:
a. The top 180° of the wheels/tires must be unobstructed when viewed from vertically above the wheel.
b. The wheels/tires must be unobstructed when viewed from the side.
c. No part of the vehicle may enter a keep out zone defined by two lines extending vertically from positions 75 mm in front of and 75 mm behind, the outer diameter of the front and rear tires in the side view elevation of the vehicle, with tires steered straight ahead. This keep out zone will extend laterally from the outside plane of the wheel/tire to the inboard plane of the wheel/tire.
V.1.2 Wheelbase
The vehicle must have a minimum wheelbase of 1525 mm
V.1.3 Vehicle Track
V.1.3.1 The track and center of gravity must combine to provide sufficient rollover stability. See IN.9.2
V.1.3.2 The smaller track of the vehicle (front or rear) must be no less than 75% of the larger track.
V.3 SUSPENSION AND STEERING
V.3.1 Suspension
V.3.1.1 The vehicle must have a fully operational suspension system with shock absorbers, front and rear, with usable minimum wheel travel of 50 mm, with a driver seated.
V.3.1.2 Officials may disqualify vehicles which do not represent a serious attempt at an operational suspension system, or which demonstrate handling inappropriate for an autocross circuit.
V.3.1.3 All suspension mounting points must be visible at Technical Inspection by direct view or by removing any covers.
V.3.1.4 Fasteners in the Suspension system are Critical Fasteners, see T.8.2
V.3.1.5 All spherical rod ends and spherical bearings on the suspension and steering must be one of: • Mounted in double shear • Captured by having a screw/bolt head or washer with an outside diameter that is larger than spherical bearing housing inside diameter.
V.3.2 Steering
V.3.2.1 The Steering Wheel must be mechanically connected to the front wheels.
V.3.2.2 Electrically actuated steering of the front wheels is prohibited.
V.3.2.3 Steering systems must use a rigid mechanical linkage capable of tension and compression loads for operation
V.3.2.4 The steering system must have positive steering stops that prevent the steering linkages from locking up (the inversion of a four bar linkage at one of the pivots). The stops may be placed on the uprights or on the rack and must prevent the wheels and tires from contacting suspension, bodywork, or Chassis during the track events.
V.3.2.5 Allowable steering system free play is limited to seven degrees (7°) total measured at the steering wheel.
V.3.2.6 The steering rack must be mechanically attached to the Chassis
V.3.2.7 Joints between all components attaching the Steering Wheel to the steering rack must be mechanical and be visible at Technical Inspection. Bonded joints without a mechanical backup are not permitted.
V.3.2.8 Fasteners in the steering system are Critical Fasteners, see T.8.2
V.3.2.9 Spherical rod ends and spherical bearings in the steering must meet V.3.1.5 above
V.3.3 Steering Wheel
V.3.3.1 In any angular position, the Steering Wheel must meet T.1.4.2
V.3.3.4 The Steering Wheel must have a continuous perimeter that is near circular or near oval. The outer perimeter profile may have some straight sections, but no concave sections. “H”, “Figure 8”, or cutout wheels are not allowed.
V.4 WHEELS AND TIRES
V.4.1 Wheel Size Wheels must be 203.2 mm (8.0 inches) or more in diameter.
V.4.2 Wheel Attachment
V.4.2.1 Any wheel mounting system that uses a single retaining nut must incorporate a device to retain the nut and the wheel if the nut loosens. A second nut (jam nut) does not meet this requirement
...but, like I mentioned earlier, should be great as a "best practice guide"
Here is some more pertinent info, notice all of the "must"(s)
...& some of my/our deviations from the "rules"
Like for ex: wheelbase of 1525 mm = 60" aka 5'
...& the wheelbase on the Hellraiser kart will be more like 48" aka 4'
...&/or suspension
* Ima not tryin' ta post a bunch of boring technical stuff (skipped over most of that)
...just the IMO "important stuff"
V - VEHICLE REQUIREMENTS
V.1 CONFIGURATION The vehicle must be open wheeled and open cockpit (a formula style body) with four wheels that are not in a straight line. V.1.1 Open Wheel
Open Wheel vehicles must satisfy all of the following criteria:
a. The top 180° of the wheels/tires must be unobstructed when viewed from vertically above the wheel.
b. The wheels/tires must be unobstructed when viewed from the side.
c. No part of the vehicle may enter a keep out zone defined by two lines extending vertically from positions 75 mm in front of and 75 mm behind, the outer diameter of the front and rear tires in the side view elevation of the vehicle, with tires steered straight ahead. This keep out zone will extend laterally from the outside plane of the wheel/tire to the inboard plane of the wheel/tire.
V.1.2 Wheelbase
The vehicle must have a minimum wheelbase of 1525 mm
V.1.3 Vehicle Track
V.1.3.1 The track and center of gravity must combine to provide sufficient rollover stability. See IN.9.2
V.1.3.2 The smaller track of the vehicle (front or rear) must be no less than 75% of the larger track.
V.3 SUSPENSION AND STEERING
V.3.1 Suspension
V.3.1.1 The vehicle must have a fully operational suspension system with shock absorbers, front and rear, with usable minimum wheel travel of 50 mm, with a driver seated.
V.3.1.2 Officials may disqualify vehicles which do not represent a serious attempt at an operational suspension system, or which demonstrate handling inappropriate for an autocross circuit.
V.3.1.3 All suspension mounting points must be visible at Technical Inspection by direct view or by removing any covers.
V.3.1.4 Fasteners in the Suspension system are Critical Fasteners, see T.8.2
V.3.1.5 All spherical rod ends and spherical bearings on the suspension and steering must be one of: • Mounted in double shear • Captured by having a screw/bolt head or washer with an outside diameter that is larger than spherical bearing housing inside diameter.
V.3.2 Steering
V.3.2.1 The Steering Wheel must be mechanically connected to the front wheels.
V.3.2.2 Electrically actuated steering of the front wheels is prohibited.
V.3.2.3 Steering systems must use a rigid mechanical linkage capable of tension and compression loads for operation
V.3.2.4 The steering system must have positive steering stops that prevent the steering linkages from locking up (the inversion of a four bar linkage at one of the pivots). The stops may be placed on the uprights or on the rack and must prevent the wheels and tires from contacting suspension, bodywork, or Chassis during the track events.
V.3.2.5 Allowable steering system free play is limited to seven degrees (7°) total measured at the steering wheel.
V.3.2.6 The steering rack must be mechanically attached to the Chassis
V.3.2.7 Joints between all components attaching the Steering Wheel to the steering rack must be mechanical and be visible at Technical Inspection. Bonded joints without a mechanical backup are not permitted.
V.3.2.8 Fasteners in the steering system are Critical Fasteners, see T.8.2
V.3.2.9 Spherical rod ends and spherical bearings in the steering must meet V.3.1.5 above
V.3.3 Steering Wheel
V.3.3.1 In any angular position, the Steering Wheel must meet T.1.4.2
V.3.3.4 The Steering Wheel must have a continuous perimeter that is near circular or near oval. The outer perimeter profile may have some straight sections, but no concave sections. “H”, “Figure 8”, or cutout wheels are not allowed.
V.4 WHEELS AND TIRES
V.4.1 Wheel Size Wheels must be 203.2 mm (8.0 inches) or more in diameter.
V.4.2 Wheel Attachment
V.4.2.1 Any wheel mounting system that uses a single retaining nut must incorporate a device to retain the nut and the wheel if the nut loosens. A second nut (jam nut) does not meet this requirement
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Well, that's enough technical babble, for a minute (lots of good info)
I re-mounted the frame in the "jig"
& then, got the battery mounting brackets welded on
Next, I re-positioned the seat to work on establishing the steering
...made sure the "uprights" were nice-n-square, before welding
Should look something like this
Here's another view
I re-mounted the frame in the "jig"
& then, got the battery mounting brackets welded on
Next, I re-positioned the seat to work on establishing the steering
...made sure the "uprights" were nice-n-square, before welding
Should look something like this
Here's another view
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Establishing the steering
Distance (height & reach)
According to my calculations, the steering wheel needs to be (~24"- 26") from the seat back
...& also, (~6" - 8") above, the front edge of the seat
Angle
Once the "steering wheel placement" is established, the steering wheel angle, can be "adjusted" by where we place/position the lower mount.
* I've found that it's not very comfortable to drive, if the steering wheel is on too much of an angle
** Ya gotta keep the steering geometry (pitman arm & tie rod position) "in mind" too
For a (1:1) steering ratio, the pitman arms should be the same length as the spindle "arms"
...so, that "factors in" where the steering shaft need to be too
*** Also, it's best to have the tie rods as "flat" as possible (a straight line from left spindle thru pitman arm to the right spindle)
Spindle arms 3 1/4" & so, the pitman arm is 3 1/4" (1:1)
...& the tie rods are in a nice-n-straight line
...& also, kept down low, to help keep 'em from "beatin' up" the back of your legs (calf bruises are NO fun)
...& a front view, showing the lower steering shaft mount that I fabricated & welded in place
Distance (height & reach)
According to my calculations, the steering wheel needs to be (~24"- 26") from the seat back
...& also, (~6" - 8") above, the front edge of the seat
Angle
Once the "steering wheel placement" is established, the steering wheel angle, can be "adjusted" by where we place/position the lower mount.
* I've found that it's not very comfortable to drive, if the steering wheel is on too much of an angle
** Ya gotta keep the steering geometry (pitman arm & tie rod position) "in mind" too
For a (1:1) steering ratio, the pitman arms should be the same length as the spindle "arms"
...so, that "factors in" where the steering shaft need to be too
*** Also, it's best to have the tie rods as "flat" as possible (a straight line from left spindle thru pitman arm to the right spindle)
Spindle arms 3 1/4" & so, the pitman arm is 3 1/4" (1:1)
...& the tie rods are in a nice-n-straight line
...& also, kept down low, to help keep 'em from "beatin' up" the back of your legs (calf bruises are NO fun)
...& a front view, showing the lower steering shaft mount that I fabricated & welded in place
Functional Artist
Well-known member
I got the spindle brackets welded on, after setting the castor at ~8* (back) toward the stern (rear)
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Pics of the "jig" I "rigged up" for aligning the spindles
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Steering shaft
I had a piece of 5/8" rod, with a splined end
...but, it was only ~5" long
I needed the shaft to be ~18" long
...so, I needed to "splice" a steering shaft together
I figured, a Sleeved Butt Joint should work nicely, in this situation
The "book" FORMULA SAE RULES 2022 says:
F.5.12.6 For Sleeved Butt Joints, the sleeve must:
a. Have a minimum length of 75 mm; 37.5 mm to each side of the joint
b. Be external to the base tubes, with a close fit around the base tubes.
c. Have a wall thickness equal to or greater than 2.0 mm
We need:
a. a 75mm (~3") sleeve with 37.5 mm (1 1/2") to each side of the joint (He He, I said joint)
b. be external, with a close fit
c. have a wall thickness equal or greater than 2.0 mm (5/64")
The steering shaft I'm using is 5/8" OD
...& 1/2" schedule 40 water pipe is ~7/8" OD x ~5/8" ID with a 1/8" wall
...so, a 3" piece should meet &/or exceed the requirements
...& here's the finished product
I had a piece of 5/8" rod, with a splined end
...but, it was only ~5" long
I needed the shaft to be ~18" long
...so, I needed to "splice" a steering shaft together
I figured, a Sleeved Butt Joint should work nicely, in this situation
The "book" FORMULA SAE RULES 2022 says:
F.5.12.6 For Sleeved Butt Joints, the sleeve must:
a. Have a minimum length of 75 mm; 37.5 mm to each side of the joint
b. Be external to the base tubes, with a close fit around the base tubes.
c. Have a wall thickness equal to or greater than 2.0 mm
We need:
a. a 75mm (~3") sleeve with 37.5 mm (1 1/2") to each side of the joint (He He, I said joint)
b. be external, with a close fit
c. have a wall thickness equal or greater than 2.0 mm (5/64")
The steering shaft I'm using is 5/8" OD
...& 1/2" schedule 40 water pipe is ~7/8" OD x ~5/8" ID with a 1/8" wall
...so, a 3" piece should meet &/or exceed the requirements
...& here's the finished product
Functional Artist
Well-known member
Now, with the steering shaft completed, I used it to "fine tune" the position, of the upper steering shaft mount
...&/also, the location of the instruments (speedometer & power meter)
* I was tryin' to position the instruments, inside the steering wheel (opening)
...& just below the drivers "sight line"
This way their mostly out of the way
...& it only takes a quick glance down, ta see what-cha need ta know
...&/also, the location of the instruments (speedometer & power meter)
* I was tryin' to position the instruments, inside the steering wheel (opening)
...& just below the drivers "sight line"
This way their mostly out of the way
...& it only takes a quick glance down, ta see what-cha need ta know
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
I do get the spec of F.5.12.7 for the bolts on a sleeved joint. What I don't get is why do all of that work of drilling many holes to bolt it together when there doesn't seem to be any spec that says you can't just weld it.
Just drill 2 holes thru 1 side only of each of the outer tubes for inspectors to see how far the insert goes. Bolt specs call for 16 aligned holes.
Just drill 2 holes thru 1 side only of each of the outer tubes for inspectors to see how far the insert goes. Bolt specs call for 16 aligned holes.