Budget stock 212 Hemi TORQUE MONSTER build!

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I was consifering using an Aisin AMR300 as a supercharger along with E85 for a gokart build. I have to keep my mind from wondering into crazy builds. Lol

---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------

If were talking a 212... I wonder how much the higher CR will handle on these little motors...
Its already easy enough to strip a head bolt, how much more tighter will it need to keep past stock let alone 12:1+ CR.

That's something to keep in mind too. These are cheap... Weld the head on. Problem fixed! :wai:
 

mckutzy

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17ft/lbs moreso than stock........ ;)
Might aswell as weld the head...
It'll be a one use block anyways...
 

vpd66

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A girdle across the stop of the head will hold it on. In case you don't know what a girdle is, it is basically a strap that holds the head down. Treaded rod would attach to the block and hold the strap down. Come on guys! Use your head ! LOL
 

mckutzy

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Ya I have heard the hard core race guys use those things...
I didnt really know what to think after seeing that... but it kinda make sense after looking into it...
Interesting Ideas with those frame things...
 

vpd66

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Don't confuse E85 with methanol alcohol. It is Ethanol and is less corrosive. In fact Ethanol is the type of alcohol that is in alcoholic beverages. I once read an article that said they would never sell 100% Ethanol at the pumps and it would always have some percentage of gasoline (E10,E15,E85, etc) otherwise it could be consumed or used the make beverages and then it would be subjected to other taxes.
 
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Don't confuse E85 with methanol alcohol. It is Ethanol and is less corrosive. In fact Ethanol is the type of alcohol that is in alcoholic beverages. I once read an article that said they would never sell 100% Ethanol at the pumps and it would always have some percentage of gasoline (E10,E15,E85, etc) otherwise it could be consumed or used the make beverages and then it would be subjected to other taxes.

I'm not confusing those. There is a problem with attracting water to the fuel, carburetor issues and seal issues dealing with E85. Check out the new cars that are designed to run on E85. Most have a while package upgrade to deal with the mild effects that E85 causes. Even Nascar developed fuel bladders and special fuel cans/connection fittings/ catch can set ups.

A couple buddies of mine drive tankers for fuel. The Ethanol that is in fuel is deliberately poisoned from the place that makes it so nobody can drink it. Other than that it would be drinkable. The 100% Ethanol is then transported in a tanker to the fuel terminals where it gets dumped in the Ethanol tank. From there they blend it with other fuels to obtain the final mixtures that they want. It could be 100% Ethanol at the pumps, nobody can drink it though. It's poisoned and color dyed.
 

vpd66

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I'm not confusing those. There is a problem with attracting water to the fuel, carburetor issues and seal issues dealing with E85. Check out the new cars that are designed to run on E85. Most have a while package upgrade to deal with the mild effects that E85 causes. Even Nascar developed fuel bladders and special fuel cans/connection fittings/ catch can set ups.

A couple buddies of mine drive tankers for fuel. The Ethanol that is in fuel is deliberately poisoned from the place that makes it so nobody can drink it. Other than that it would be drinkable. The 100% Ethanol is then transported in a tanker to the fuel terminals where it gets dumped in the Ethanol tank. From there they blend it with other fuels to obtain the final mixtures that they want. It could be 100% Ethanol at the pumps, nobody can drink it though. It's poisoned and color dyed.

You are correct about it attracting water. You can buy a simple tester and will tell you the Ethanol content. A simple drain plug on your fuel tank is all that is needed to drain the fuel when you don't plan on running your engine for a while. The E85 they sell here is clear like water, No color to it.
When we were running it in the stock cars all we really did was modify the metering block in the carb. The rest of the fuel system was exactly the same used for racing fuel. In fact we would drain the fuel cell and change the carb and run racing fuel for a certain track that didn't allow E85. In 3 years of using E85 the only problem we had was that the needle and seat would stick occasionally and if we just removed it and cleaned it with WD40 it was fine. So every other week we would pull the needle and seat (very simple and easy job on a Holly carb) and give it a cleaning with WD40. We also only bought enough fuel we were going to use for that day on the way to the track and we always tested it.
We should start a separate thread on E85.
 
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I have been busy with other more important things, plus waiting on a carbide bit I need for anchor preparation. I am thinking of building a flow bench pretty seriously also. So I am trying to decide the best way to go about doing it in the way that I want. It should pick up speed again soon.
 
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I know that many of you understand how all of tgese things work but I try to keep in mind the youngsters or folks that might not have aquired this knowledge yet to provide a learning experience for them. I also think about others in the future looking to do something similar might very much appreciate the additional info. Who knows, maybe it will be good enough for a sticky. It would be much easier for me to just do the work and not take the time to share it with others or especially have it there for future reference. I could even just toss the pics up and not provide the reason or theories to the "why" and "how" but then it wouldn't seem complete enough to me that it would help others. So while I am long winded and provide too much gabbing my intention is focused on all the future people that may find it useful.

Well I got my carbide in the mail and it wasn't quite what I needed. The tip was too small. So I cut down a cone carbide that I had laying around that has some some wear on the tip to make my own. I worked ok for the purpose. I drilled a hole in the valve bowk roof and sunk a gnarly screw with red locktite in it to providean ample anchor for the epoxy to hang onto. I cut grooves in the port so the epoxy could have more to hang on to as well as drilled and tapped the port and screwed in bolts in several spots to provide an anchoring point for the epoxy. I then added the 2 part steel epoxy to the port and let set to cure for 24hrs. Then I went to town removing material on my first try at making the port shaped the way I think should have a positive effect on velocity, flow and the proper swirl characteristics for good overall performance.

I am trying to maintain proper velocity and air flow in the port to maintain proper fuel atomization, laminar flow, total CFM capable of enough flow during peak torque, create enough swirl in the valve bowl and curtain seat area to produce an even flow of A/F mixture around the valve during decompression while not so much that it throws the fuel out of suspension. I raised the port roof to create a better angle for better laminar flow to the valve seat, raised the port floor to make the short turn much more gradual so the air will flow along the short side easier and into the valve seat area nearest the short side more efficiently which will hopefully prevent it from pulling away and creating valve bowl choke with the long side radius A/F mixture.

I am not totally happy with the current port shape so I will be going in and reshaping it but I wanted to get going and feel out the port and process to kinda get a feel for the angles and what I want. I biased the port to one side so that more air will flow on one side and then created a stall area in the other in the valve bowl area to stall the air out just a bit to cause a swirl state. I think I will push the stall further up in the bowl towards the valve guide when I redo it. You can see that there is a much longer and more gradual short turn radius also. The valve bowl to valve seat is blended pretty smooth now as well. Before there was a slightly inverted lip.

With the stock port the short turn was very abrupt and short and the long turn opened up to a flat top bowl. I figure that with a more gradual short turn and a long turn with more laminar flow that it should make up for the smaller cross-sectional port area some. The actual amount of CFM needed for this engine is quite small if a fairly efficient flowing port is utilized, which means a port with a fairly small cross-sectional area would provide plenty enough volume needed for even the most demanding point of the rpm and torque curve. So while improving the port flow efficiency you can utilize a smaller port and a tighter cross-sectional area to improve fuel suspension. Improved fuel suspension leads to a more efficient BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption), which allows for more work to be done with less fuel, again leading to a more efficient engine. On top of that, a smaller, more efficient port is much quicker to respond to valve events making the A/F decompression process start sooner which will start filling the combustion chamber sooner allowing more total charge time to the decompression charge cycle. In addition, during overlap while the exhaust is being scavenged it provides a huge amount of negative pressure. With a more efficient intake port this very brief amount of time of overlap can drastically effect enough change to start a pre-charge cycle where the A/F mixture starts to move before the downward movement of the piston would start to have any effect with the decompression cycle. This tiny bit can make an engine much more responsive and efficient not only at low speed, low and mid valve lift but all the way through the rpm range since the effect is stronger with load and higher speeds. This can create a bump in overall top rpm horsepower as well, dramatically widening and strengthening the torque curve and bumping HP above the curve. These are the things that I am trying to dial in with doing this.

In order to get a better idea of changes made and where I stand compared to stock is to do some testing. The first part of the testing process would to be to utilize an engine head flow bench. While not the most accurate way to determine whether the intake, ports and exhaust is performing better it is a huge step up from the guessing and test running process. It gives you an idea of how well the head flows, total CFM the heads are capable of, port velocities and so on. While it doesn't exactly duplicate an engine while running you can make comparisons between changes you have made in the head and get an idea of what the head will perform like on an engine. So, that's what I think I will do next. I decided to build a flow bench.

Stay tuned.
 

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Brianator

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For some reason it won't let me upload images any more. Not sure why.

There's still bugs from the server change to iron out. Take a screenshot of your photo, crop it a little and try to upload that. I personally don't know why it worked but I figured out that workaround to get a photo uploaded successfully.
 

itsid

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very likely image dimensions yes..
it's a bit tough to find our old settings since they have been lost during the move somehow.

if you upload jpg (NOT JPEG! NOR PNG) you will likely be save atm

most phones offer a workaround for such issues however..
when picking an image from the library there's an option to scale it down
(on iphones it's at the very bottom) "medium size" should do the trick
when "full size" and even "large" may fail.

I'm quite sure there's a similar button on androids, but I'm afraid I don't know for sure..
check the three-dot-menu and see if you can find "upload quality" or such..

'sid

PS there are numerous websites offereing an online image resizing service..
resizeimage.net , picresize.com , simpleimageresizer.com , resize-photos.com
and so on and so forth... (google for more)
or simply head to imgbb.com upload your photo and paste
the image link (the one ending in jpg!) in the url field of the attachment box,
then delete the image (if you like) from imgbb.com again afterwards.
 

BigWes

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No such buttons on my droid phone. I have an awful time uploading images. I have to crop everything where previously I never had any issues.
 

itsid

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hmm.. yeah bummer IDK I don't own a droid phone..
maybe we can find old screenshots that tell us what settings we had before,
but let's not spoil this thread too much with off topic bable
(much less screenshots in case someone finds them)
and rather move that discussion to this
"Site got moved" - thread instead, shall we :D

'sid
 
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Here are some crappy pics of the intake port so far. I will be re-doing many things about the port but this gives you an idea of what I am going for. If you look you can see that the short turn radius floor is raised a considerable amount. What this does is make the turn into the valve seat much more gradual. This 'should' help the air/fuel mixture follow the much more gentle radius much easier instead of the charge going straight and causing a pressure front against the long turn radius flow that would increase unwanted turbulence in the valve bowl area. Theintake runner will continue the gradual sweep/taper and end up in a proper sized round or oval tube.

I also removed material from the long turn radius roof to help with the port to valve angle and add total volume and cross-sectional area. I biased the port to allow a portion that flows more and a portion that will stall a small amount with the idea being that it will cause the charge to swirl, which will allow a more even pressure of A/F mixture to enter around the valve curtain more evenly, hopefully without causing too much turbulence or too much swirl where it would sling the fuel out of suspension. I'm sure this will be a lesson in humility. Will it work? Probably not.. But maybe! One step closer to finding out will be to put it on a flow bench. So, that's what I am going to do. I am building a flowbench.

There is no substitute to actual live testing the engine running with a load on the kart but a flowbench will likely be able to give you some kind of idea of whether you screwed the flow up, might have made a difference to the positive and will provide CFM numbers at different valve lifts. With the low amount of valve lift and short ports I am pretty certain that the valve seat shape will be the place that would make the biggest difference. With that said, I hope to provide a smooth flowing, proper velocity port that provides proper fuel atomization while still being able to provide enough total CFM at all engine speeds and engine loads.

I will keep monkeying around with the port until I feel it's what I want and then put it on the flowbench and see how it flows. And then keep making alterations until I am convinced it will perform properly. Then I will do the same for the exhaust port. Then I will put the intake and exhaust on and flow each one and then flow the entire system, both with the valves out and with valves in at overlap valve event lifts to try to improve scavenging of the exhaust and precharging the intake to improve low lift reaction. Hopefully there will be a performance gain when all is said and done. I kinda doubt the gain will be worth the time involved but it's more about the love of tinkering and improving efficiency that it is about whether it's worth doing so when considering the amount of effort and time I put into it. But maybe, just MAYBE, I will be blessed with a pretty noticeable performance gain that is worth the effort!
 

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