greenman
New member
I think I am going to try to build most of my frame without welding. What is the best way to do this? Should drill holes in the square tubing and connect it with brackets? How hard would it be to make these holes?
No Weld Frame
- Thread starter greenman
- Start date
- Status
rushking19
Active member
It's best to weld because it would last longer and it will be stronger, and you didn't have to worry about your go kart falling apart while driving
firemanjim
Just kartin' around....
Bolted together, it's not the safest thing you could ride......
ML-TOYS
New member
This is one that i had picked up to build a while back. You can see that almost the whole thing was bolted together. When i got it there were loose bolts and the thru holes were wore out and too big. After i tightened up bolts and squared up the frame i had to weld all the joints where the bolts were to keep it from flexing and also falling apart.
You can do what you want but i highly suggest not trusting a bolted frame.
You can do what you want but i highly suggest not trusting a bolted frame.
Attachments
-
image.jpg
Greyscale
New member
I think this is a great opportunity for you to pick up a used MIG welder and teach yourself the craft. Once you've got it down, you'll be addicted! You can get a used Millermatic 110 on Cragislist for $200 or so if you've got the patience to look.
Even if you did use through bolts to hold the frame together, thick, high-grade washers or reinforcement plates would HAVE to be added/welded to the frame at each bolt hole to ensure that the load from the bolts was properly distributed across the walls of the tubes. Otherwise, the thin walls of typical 1.5" square tubing are just not strong enough to hold a load-bearing bolt without oblonging the holes or even tearing the steel.
Once you're ready to weld, be sure that you get in enough practice to ensure strong, consistent welds at each joint before you start sticking the joints together. A "bubble gum weld" isn't just ugly, it is more than likely weak as well.
Even if you did use through bolts to hold the frame together, thick, high-grade washers or reinforcement plates would HAVE to be added/welded to the frame at each bolt hole to ensure that the load from the bolts was properly distributed across the walls of the tubes. Otherwise, the thin walls of typical 1.5" square tubing are just not strong enough to hold a load-bearing bolt without oblonging the holes or even tearing the steel.
Once you're ready to weld, be sure that you get in enough practice to ensure strong, consistent welds at each joint before you start sticking the joints together. A "bubble gum weld" isn't just ugly, it is more than likely weak as well.
OzFab
Well-known member
mckutzy
Well-known member
..... Bird shyte weldin.
machinist@large
Active member
Properly designed bolted connections are used in industry for heavy loads/loading, but they are almost always used to connect components that have been designed for the application using welding, casting, machining from solid stock, etc. To design a strong bolted kart frame will require much more effort, weight and cost than just breaking down and learning how to weld, including the price of a descent welder.
Some times what looks like the cheapest way to go is actually the most expensive.....
Some times what looks like the cheapest way to go is actually the most expensive.....
Poboy kartman
Senior Moments Member
True....
But just to cover the bases....I'm going to play devil's advocate here....and put out the other side.....however unlikely.....
Now....IF....you have all the fasteners required....at no cost.....and you have the extra free time to spend MORE time to assemble.....AND.....you have either the engineering background to assure success....or are prepared for the consequences of failure...you should be good to go!!!!!
I could do it.....but I don't have all the fasteners required....and that adds up quick.....but if you consider the cost of the welder....probably pretty close.....
Now.....it seems everyone on this forum....believes that bolts are a very poor substitute for welding....and are inherently.....and almost inevitably....destined. to fail.....
But many critical parts of karts are BOLTED together....if I would pick the ONE part on a kart....that sees the biggest forces.....it would be the engine connecting rod.....and it's not welded together......
So a bolted frame is far from out of the question.....but it has to be done properly.......
Which leads me to my final point.....is it easier to bolt a kart together properly.....or weld one together properly?????
Edit:....So....which one is more likely to become a sudden....catastrophic failure....a loose bolt or a bad weld?????
properly designed bolted karts are just fricking awesome...
the '68 Blackhawk Poison Arrow for example consists of
five custom made (welded) parts four of which fit in a single (larger) shoebox plus the front beam and the rest is ALL single tubes bolted on, 6 of them straight.
here's a parts-pile:
and a nice walk around of the assembled kart (same thing but different kart...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56t1EsLTxeY
'sid
the '68 Blackhawk Poison Arrow for example consists of
five custom made (welded) parts four of which fit in a single (larger) shoebox plus the front beam and the rest is ALL single tubes bolted on, 6 of them straight.
here's a parts-pile:
and a nice walk around of the assembled kart (same thing but different kart...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56t1EsLTxeY
'sid
I've heard experienced welders say 1/4" of weld is generally equal to three 1/4" bolts. Maybe, maybe not. In any case if I were to attempt a bolt together kart, using the usual thin wall tubing, every structural bolt on it would be inserted into a welded in steel bushing (heavy wall tube), and I'd use Gr. 8 bolts with washers and nylock nuts or Gr. 8 steel lock nuts. Again, that would require much more time and just as much welding as just welding the tube structure together. IF one is worried that his welds may break at speed . . . he probably shouldn't be building a kart in the first place. At least not until he has practiced sufficiently and has verified his ability to get consistently good penetration, or had a certified welder check his welds. I'd like to know if anyone here has bolted a kart together (no welds) and NOT experienced bolts loosening due to the bolt hole wallowing out the thin wall tube under a few hours of use.
Poboy kartman
Senior Moments Member
I would bet a lot of money I could.....
KartFab
Active member
Let's shed a little light on this:
Good goal
You want to learn though right?
If you had a welder you could weld an exhaust.
If you are worried about costs, it would be better to buy a used one.
If you don't think it would be useful, and you want to save $$, buy one used, and sell it for what you bought it for.
I'm not sure, but are you worried about the $$, and want to put forth the effort to learn how to weld?
You sure you want to make that bet, Poboy? And, you'd loose. And then I'd have to send Vito Da Hook to collect on the bet. And . . . . . . .
That said, I think you should try it. But I'd want to see Torque Seal on all the nuts and bolt heads, and an hour meter. Not that I don't trust you.
However, just to illustrate my confidence in your mechanical finesse, I'll wager 50 cents on your success.
Conrod may be a bad example since it's designed to see most of its load perpendicular to its joint (along the length of the bolts), and on top of that uses locating dowels/bolts to handle any side loads.
Bolts really, really should not be used in heavy duty applications with side loads unless you use locating bolts or dowels with a matching machined surface on the part. The thread doesn't provide anything close to a suitable bearing surface.
Outside of that the rest of your post makes sense and does pose an interesting question of which could fail most spectacularly
Greyscale
New member
Judging by your last post, I wouldn't.
Well..
It's MUCH harder to bolt a kart together properly than it is to weld a kart together properly.
And while there are exceptions (perfectly build bolted karts as there are perfectly useable wooden karts etc.)
those are the exceptions to the rule.
Those karts are if build properly much more expensive than a welded steel kart.
If you want to keep an eye on the amount you spend and the safety you gain, a welded steel kart is just the way to go.
I cheated on the blackhawk I must admit.. it's fun since it's indeed a bolted frame..
but EVERY single tube has several welds to accomodate the bolts and crossmembers etc.. it's bolted to have easily replaceble sections in case of a crash.
So it's far from a "No weld frame" to be honest.
It's still a great kart of course and basically proof that you can achieve stability using bolts (the rear axle hangers are scary looking for example
)
but keep in mind that the nuts and bolts used on that kart alone are at least as expensive as a used welded chassis.
And they work because you'd bet there has been serious testing and research to build the frame as you see it.
Personally I'd assume that the first few prototypes crashed because of a failing bolt somewhere.
So that's at least very time consuming to come up with a working configuration.
and thus expensive in some way...
So if you want to keep it as simple as possible, and don't want to buy a welder,
just don't make your chassis on your own but buy a used one (craigslist ebay..whatever).
'sid
It's MUCH harder to bolt a kart together properly than it is to weld a kart together properly.
And while there are exceptions (perfectly build bolted karts as there are perfectly useable wooden karts etc.)
those are the exceptions to the rule.
Those karts are if build properly much more expensive than a welded steel kart.
If you want to keep an eye on the amount you spend and the safety you gain, a welded steel kart is just the way to go.
I cheated on the blackhawk I must admit.. it's fun since it's indeed a bolted frame..
but EVERY single tube has several welds to accomodate the bolts and crossmembers etc.. it's bolted to have easily replaceble sections in case of a crash.
So it's far from a "No weld frame" to be honest.
It's still a great kart of course and basically proof that you can achieve stability using bolts (the rear axle hangers are scary looking for example
)but keep in mind that the nuts and bolts used on that kart alone are at least as expensive as a used welded chassis.
And they work because you'd bet there has been serious testing and research to build the frame as you see it.
Personally I'd assume that the first few prototypes crashed because of a failing bolt somewhere.
So that's at least very time consuming to come up with a working configuration.
and thus expensive in some way...
So if you want to keep it as simple as possible, and don't want to buy a welder,
just don't make your chassis on your own but buy a used one (craigslist ebay..whatever).
'sid
Poboy kartman
Senior Moments Member
So....what's bolted on a kart?
Roll cage...engine....steering wheels....tire rods....tires...clutch...seat....brake and accelerator pedals......
Just saying....it can be done....never said easy or cheap....or better....just feasible...
Roll cage...engine....steering wheels....tire rods....tires...clutch...seat....brake and accelerator pedals......
Just saying....it can be done....never said easy or cheap....or better....just feasible...
Greyscale
New member
You're comparing apples to oranges, bud. There are totally different forces (magnitude, direction, etc.) on a frame than there are on any of the components you listed, including the roll cage.
see the scheme Doug?
everything that needs to be easy to replace or is moveable is bolted not welded.
A welded pedal wouldn't move and a welded clutch cannot be replaced (easily)..
proper rollcages are welded the rest is considered being "brush guard" mostly ...
anyways...
possible, but unfeasible to bolt a kart chassis.
(wasn't the handsome's kart that Robert posted a while ago bolted as well?)
'sid
everything that needs to be easy to replace or is moveable is bolted not welded.
A welded pedal wouldn't move and a welded clutch cannot be replaced (easily)..
proper rollcages are welded the rest is considered being "brush guard" mostly ...
anyways...
possible, but unfeasible to bolt a kart chassis.
(wasn't the handsome's kart that Robert posted a while ago bolted as well?)
'sid
- Status