"Just buy a clone"

[slideways]

Exactly.. too bad for some stupid reason some complete moron is spreading the word that these motors are garbage and unreliable. Get real people, they don't blow up if you know how to use a motor.

OHV, Cast Iron Sleeve, Dual Ball Bearing Crank, Low Oil Sensor, Fuel Shutoff, Electronic Ignition with remote kill switch, Manual Choke, Steel Fuel tank, STEEL Cam (sorry briggs/tecumseh). What's that? $74 out the door? Yep i'll take 10 and never have to completely gut an engine to: Remove sidecover, remove cam, remove head assy and carb, unbolt rod, push piston out, remove rings, clean block top to bottom, BUY a hone and hone cyl wall, BUY new rings, install rings, BUY new head gasket, BUY piston ring installer, install piston, BUY micrometer torque wrench, torque rod bolts, reinstall and index cam, install sidecover, reinstall head with new head gasket after you clean off the old residue, torque down head, reinstall carb with any new gaskets you also had to BUY.

Well here goes.. i just spent hours of time, carb cleaner, rags, money on parts, possible tools, oil. If i overtightened the rod bolts the motor will seize, if i didn't get them tight enough it will chuck the rod and destroy itself, if any of the gaskets didn't seal right i'll have to do it mostly all over again, if the rings don't seat right it will smoke forever and foul plugs. Man this motor is so awesome, i'm glad i gambled and fixed it.

 

[sideways]

I didn't really create this as a clone bashing thread, I can see why you'd buy one if you didn't have an engine (although, I never would). However, keep on going, it's interesting to see people's opinion on this .

Here's my only proper experience with clone engines.

Once upon a time (last year) I rebuilt (all around the same time) a mid 90s 3.5hp Briggs, a clone that was only a couple of years old and an older Honda GX160. I was quite unimpressed with the Briggs, it had quite soft aluminium (a few of the threads had been stripped out already) and the tin in the air cowling left alot to be desired (someone had given it a hard pull and it had pulled the bolts through, just ripped the tin, I guess this is why they did them up tighter and killed the thread), it also had a wind vane governor and a fuel tank that wouldn't of even held a litre, I wasn't very impressed with that. The clones casting was quite good but everything else was appalling, the throttle didn't work because the sh!t welds on the linkage had snapped, the paint on the air cowling was chipping off and it was starting to rust (this engine was probably only 2 or three years old!), the kill switch was broken but worst of all, most of the bolts hadn't been done up tight enough and had rattled loose, even one of the head bolts was only finger tight! But as I said before I was quite quite impressed with the quality of the block and internals, I dare say they were better quality than the Briggs! The Honda was brilliant, I couldn't fault it on anything, best quality engine there by far. Interestingly, the Honda and the clone both started 1st pull, the Briggs started after the 945827689415th pull. None of them really need a rebuild, it was more just people wanting me to make sure their fine. These engines weren't kart engines and were completely standard.

Having said all this though, the 1979 Briggs mower engine I have is much better quality than the above mentioned Briggs but this was more about comparing engines of similar age.

Thanks

Hayden

 

[devino246]

Besides, whats the fun in running you new chinise motor for a month untill it breaks then sending it in for a new one? Maintaining and repairing stuff if part of the hobby

Exactly!

 

[VoodooChild]

Remember when I was talking about whats wrong with the world?

Besides, whats the fun in running you new chinise motor for a month untill it breaks then sending it in for a new one? Maintaining and repairing stuff if part of the hobby

Don't kid your self, i have plenty of projects to maintain and repair. 2002 honda 919, 1973 dodge challenger, 4 high end bicycles, 1979 motobecane moped, 2 jet skis, 3 four wheelers, 2 dirt bikes, a sailboat, and I'm about to start on board track replica. I'm all about them toys, but like i said. My time pays off better if i spend it on more valuable projects. And sadly enough, someone threw that old motor out for a reason. They just won't be worth that much, fully rebuilt or not.

 

[slideways]

The reason you are getting the clone cheap are that the carburetor is a copy of a Keihin (best brand of carb ever made IMO) and has to have all of its balls taken off to meet new EPA regs. The passages often have to be very small and the quality of the material isn't there because the price isn't there. However they do run for their purpose of utility equipment quite well and pollute less than the Briggs, Tecs and such of yesteryear that had less regulation and could run whatever carb they wanted.

Also you sacrifice the actual consistency of the block material. It is often slightly more porous and weaker than the genuine Honda. Again $99 vs $399. The ONLY situation where this even remotely comes into play is in motors built over 15hp which are under extreme rpm and internal stresses.

Crankshafts are decent replicas but once again dont have quite the consistency of the Genuine Honda which can rival any crank out there in terms of strength and performance. They still are dead on par with any Briggs/Tec offering and many are forged.

Otherwise you are getting a copy of the best utility motor ever made for 1/4 the price.

 

[dave1701]

Well here goes.. i just spent hours of time, carb cleaner, rags, money on parts, possible tools, oil. If i overtightened the rod bolts the motor will seize, if i didn't get them tight enough it will chuck the rod and destroy itself, if any of the gaskets didn't seal right i'll have to do it mostly all over again, if the rings don't seat right it will smoke forever and foul plugs. Man this motor is so awesome, i'm glad i gambled and fixed it.

Like I said before, it's part of the hobby. Those butterflies you get in your stomach right before you start the old motor you've just repaired. That's what its all about. The thing you just put so much time into could blow up or could run perfect for 20 years. THAT is fun.

 

[vgk]

You guys made my day. Expecialy you Dave, you are compleatly correct. And Russ, A little less than three years, im counting down! And If you think they are getting crazy about the cars, look at the desil trucks. Ford was screwed for about 4 years with all of the law suits on the 6.0 powerstroke because of the emition standerds causing them to put in a egr cooler.

 

[sideways]

....Having to deal with greasy, rusted engines with stale gas and stripped bolts, is not my idea of a good time.

That's my idea of a good time, I don't care if I'm working on a ****ty clapped out Briggs or a 572 crate motor, an engines an engine, the difference between a true mechanic and someone who just fixes stuff I guess.... I get just as much of a thrill working on my ****ty Briggs mower engine than I do when I buried deep in the engine bay of my mates V8 Commodore...

And sadly enough, someone threw that old motor out for a reason. They just won't be worth that much, fully rebuilt or not.

Usually when I find an engine at the tip it just need a carby clean or the coil gap to be reset.

The reason you are getting the clone cheap are that the carburetor is a copy of a Keihin (best brand of carb ever made IMO) and has to have all of its balls taken off to meet new EPA regs.

I'm yet to meet a Keihin carby that doesn't leak like there's no tomorrow but other than that, they are quite good, I dare say they are the reason Honda are renowned for their ability to start 1st pull.

The passages often have to be very small and the quality of the material isn't there because the price isn't there. However they do run for their purpose of utility equipment quite well and pollute less than the Briggs, Tecs and such of yesteryear that had less regulation and could run whatever carb they wanted.

I'm sorry but I just have to argue here, how much pollution do you think a Briggs produces?? I could drive my car into town and back and that'd make more pollution than a Briggs running flat out for a month!

Also you sacrifice the actual consistency of the block material. It is often slightly more porous and weaker than the genuine Honda. Again $99 vs $399. The ONLY situation where this even remotely comes into play is in motors built over 15hp which are under extreme rpm and internal stresses.

I have to agree with you here, although, the clone I worked on cost $249 (that's what they cost over here in southern Western Australia).

Otherwise you are getting a copy of the best utility motor ever made for 1/4 the price.

No way is a GX160 the best utility engine ever! An old Villiers or Jap will out last and out torque anything Honda ever makes.... Let alone a Lister or anything hit and miss.

Like I said before, it's part of the hobby. Those butterflies you get in your stomach right before you start the old motor you've just repaired. That's what its all about. The thing you just put so much time into could blow up or could run perfect for 20 years. THAT is fun.

Amen to that!

Hayden

 

[vgk]

Like I said before, it's part of the hobby. Those butterflies you get in your stomach right before you start the old motor you've just repaired. That's what its all about. The thing you just put so much time into could blow up or could run perfect for 20 years. THAT is fun.

Expesialy when the engine was run to sh.it!

 

[slideways]

Lol.. you down under folks play by your own rules.

The pollution thing is related to the new clone having to meet EPA standards today that are much more strict than the Briggs had to back in the day. They manage to get these carbs to meet the emission laws and stay reliable as heck even with the tiny passages they have to put in them. The Briggs carbs were needlessly complicated in the old days IMO, updraft/tank mount and they didn't have near the rules to play by.

 

[sideways]

Lol.. you down under folks play by your own rules.

The pollution thing is related to the new clone having to meet EPA standards today that are much more strict than the Briggs had to back in the day. They manage to get these carbs to meet the emission laws and stay reliable as heck even with the tiny passages they have to put in them. The Briggs carbs were needlessly complicated in the old days IMO, updraft/tank mount and they didn't have near the rules to play by.

So? Briggs have to meet those standards now too? I wasn't having a go at you, more the EPA for making pathetic laws... I don't think anyone on here cares about the pollution their kart makes too.

No matter how small the jets have to be, Honda's carbies will always be more reliable than anything Briggs ever makes!

Hayden

 

[Blazkowiez]

So? Briggs have to meet those standards now too? I wasn't having a go at you, more the EPA for making pathetic laws... I don't think anyone on here cares about the pollution their kart makes too.

No matter how small the jets have to be, Honda's carbies will always be more reliable than anything Briggs ever makes!

Hayden

I'm going to have to step in here and defend Briggs and Stratton on that statement.

Have you ever let a float bowl clone or Tecumseh sit for 4 months? Yeah, it happens, and they usually don't start after that, they need to be cleaned out.

Have you ever let a diaphragm Briggs sit for 4 months? Even with slightly older gas that Briggs will start 4/5 times, it takes longer to foul up the older styled carbs. Their downfall imo was the gas tank, it was not properly galvanized and rusts too easily. (clone tanks are way way worse, they rust so fast its frightening, a real Honda would never do that, hence the cost)

Clones, not to hate, I have the following complaints,
1. Mufflers, I've seen a few collapse or be poorly done from factory, their bolts nearly always fall out and rust within a week of displaying the kart.

2. Gas Tanks, as stated previously we have a serious problem with protection, there is almost no galvanization, it can and will rust at a tremendous rate.

3. Gas Caps, they provide a poor seal and break easily. Even the replacement caps from Rotary which are Chinese work better than the ones I find on HF clones, the caps on a Yamakoyo is higher quality but I don't run into many of those clones.

4. Recoils, their quality varies depending on what clone you see, often the dogs will dislodge in a higher quantity than the other brands of engines we encounter. I'm sure you all understand what a loose dog will tear up.

5. Internal Governor, the governor itself is inconsistent, on several occasions we've had to vary the manner we construct our linkage packs given the particular engine, it is disconcerting. This may have something to do with their odd idle issues but I have not found a link yet, and frankly at their price don't care.

6. Power Packs, literally dozens of times we've run across failures on new engines that are isolated to the power pack and only the power pack.

I'll leave that list at that, I won't pick on the block because we get what we pay for.

Positive remarks,

Cheap, I love how affordable these engines are.

Warranty, when you purchase them from harbor freight for a mere $20 dollars you can get a 2 year warranty, typically enough to last the attention span of your children.

Reliability, aside from the failure rate, when these engines do run they really run well. They start very easily and customers like not having to pull the recoil a few times to prime the carb or pushing that primer bulb several times. It is very user friendly.

Those are the reasons they will continue to thrive, as it has been stated before, this is the society we live in, many people will continue to purchase these engines. They aren't great, but **** they're cheap.

Correct me if wrong, but isn't the clone a stolen (not created) design?

Here is what I was told by a few separate distributors when these came around a few years ago.

Honda made a gamble, that with the GX engines they could outsource their production to a few separate Chinese factories for a decade or so lease. At the end of the deal, these factories could keep the molds and do what they would with them. By this time Honda figured they would have produced a newer style of engine and it would be far superior to the GX series and there would be no competition. This was a major mistake and the gamble can not be undone. There are several different factories building these and you can tell that given the varying quality, Yamakoyo engines cost triple that of a clone from HF and are triple the quality. There are a few good copies, but when you're only saving 100-120 dollars versus purchasing a real honest to God Honda, why make that decision?

 

[sideways]

I'm going to have to step in here and defend Briggs and Stratton on that statement.

Have you ever let a float bowl clone or Tecumseh sit for 4 months? Yeah, it happens, and they usually don't start after that, they need to be cleaned out.

Have you ever let a diaphragm Briggs sit for 4 months? Even with slightly older gas that Briggs will start 4/5 times, it takes longer to foul up the older styled carbs. Their downfall imo was the gas tank, it was not properly galvanized and rusts too easily. (clone tanks are way way worse, they rust so fast its frightening, a real Honda would never do that, hence the cost)

I've never had that problem, I've quite a few problems with briggs carbys however, hard diaphragms, stupid auto chokes that don't work, you get the idea.. I've never had to clean a float bowl style carby that's been sitting for less than a couple of years, just new fuel and away you go! (or old fuel in some cases )

Honda made a gamble, that with the GX engines they could outsource their production to a few separate Chinese factories for a decade or so lease. At the end of the deal, these factories could keep the molds and do what they would with them. By this time Honda figured they would have produced a newer style of engine and it would be far superior to the GX series and there would be no competition. This was a major mistake and the gamble can not be undone. There are several different factories building these and you can tell that given the varying quality, Yamakoyo engines cost triple that of a clone from HF and are triple the quality. There are a few good copies, but when you're only saving 100-120 dollars versus purchasing a real honest to God Honda, why make that decision?

A similar thing happened to Chrysler, they started building jeeps in China, the workers constructed the factory and then built another, identical factory a few blocks away and started producing the same cars but selling them for less. Chrysler was quite pissed off about this and went to the Chinese government about the matter, the government more or less said "your problem, deal with it, we don't care". Sucks to be Chrysler!

Hayden

 

[dave1701]

Have you ever let a float bowl clone or Tecumseh sit for 4 months? Yeah, it happens, and they usually don't start after that, they need to be cleaned out.

That hasn't happened with my Tecumseh yet. Left it with 1/4 tank of gas in all winter (whoops!), filled it up with new gas, and it started 2nd pull.

 

[Blazkowiez]

I've never had that problem, I've quite a few problems with briggs carbys however, hard diaphragms, stupid auto chokes that don't work, you get the idea.. I've never had to clean a float bowl style carby that's been sitting for less than a couple of years, just new fuel and away you go! (or old fuel in some cases )

Hayden

How prevalent is ethanol in the gas where you live? Before the introduction of ethanol these problems were far less common. The gas seems to break down at an accelerated rate with the use of this additive. Thanks Al Gore!

That hasn't happened with my Tecumseh yet. Left it with 1/4 tank of gas in all winter (whoops!), filled it up with new gas, and it started 2nd pull.

You got lucky, it will. Always treat your gas with Stabil and run for a few min before sitting it up. Clogged carbs seem to be a large amount of business and no matter how many times you tell people to start their engines or treat it, they keep commin' back.

 

[Kaptain Krunch]

Exactly.. too bad for some stupid reason some complete moron is spreading the word that these motors are garbage and unreliable. Get real people, they don't blow up if you know how to use a motor.

OHV, Cast Iron Sleeve, Dual Ball Bearing Crank, Low Oil Sensor, Fuel Shutoff, Electronic Ignition with remote kill switch, Manual Choke, Steel Fuel tank, STEEL Cam (sorry briggs/tecumseh). What's that? $74 out the door? Yep i'll take 10 and never have to completely gut an engine to: Remove sidecover, remove cam, remove head assy and carb, unbolt rod, push piston out, remove rings, clean block top to bottom, BUY a hone and hone cyl wall, BUY new rings, install rings, BUY new head gasket, BUY piston ring installer, install piston, BUY micrometer torque wrench, torque rod bolts, reinstall and index cam, install sidecover, reinstall head with new head gasket after you clean off the old residue, torque down head, reinstall carb with any new gaskets you also had to BUY.

Well here goes.. i just spent hours of time, carb cleaner, rags, money on parts, possible tools, oil. If i overtightened the rod bolts the motor will seize, if i didn't get them tight enough it will chuck the rod and destroy itself, if any of the gaskets didn't seal right i'll have to do it mostly all over again, if the rings don't seat right it will smoke forever and foul plugs. Man this motor is so awesome, i'm glad i gambled and fixed it.

Any good mechanic will already own a torque wrench, hone, and micrometer (you can buy a digital caliper for $5 off ebay that will work fine too).

Anyone who knows anything can confidently rebuilt any briggs/tecumseh/kohler/honda etc, and know it will run fine once its back together. With parts on hand, you can rebuild and break in a small engine in a day no problem.

You sound like a lazy, cheap, mechanic.

This stuff is fun, i enjoy tearing into in old dirty engine, and making it nice.

To each his own i guess.

 

[VoodooChild]

You can't "know" its going to run. Well at least not well, in fact to be really safe or for high horsepower you should have it sonic checked (especially if your doing your own boring/honing). Plus there's always the chance there's a tiny crack in the cylinder wall, which will take you forever to figure out why it runs funky.
These are the kind of situations, were its a huge benefit to know that the engine was never overheated, or rebuilt before by poor hands resulting in a nick in cylinder wall. However having a warranty can solve all these problems really quickly and painlessly

 

[Kaptain Krunch]

You can't "know" its going to run. Well at least not well, in fact to be really safe or for high horsepower you should have it sonic checked (especially if your doing your own boring/honing). Plus there's always the chance there's a tiny crack in the cylinder wall, which will take you forever to figure out why it runs funky.
These are the kind of situations, were its a huge benefit to know that the engine was never overheated, or rebuilt before by poor hands resulting in a nick in cylinder wall. However having a warranty can solve all these problems really quickly and painlessly

You can be pretty **** confident.

The a crack in your cylinder wall would have no bad effects besides low compression if it was high in the liner, and the loss of compression would hardly make it run funky, possibly a small loss in power. That would also be noticeable with a compression tester after you break the engine in.

Your also much more likely to find a defect in a NEW clone, than you are in an overheated, abused briggs.

Overheating one of these things is hard, only way to do it is run it extremely lean, or get your cylinder fins clogged with grass and dirt. Those are both pretty noticeable (unless the previous owner masked it).

 

[r_chez_08]

My opinion on clones: cheap and appealing cos of this, great for people on a low budget, quality ok if kept close to stock.
Genuine honda: pricey but great quality. Quality is definently better, I can see just from comparing clone and Honda recoils.
Repairing engines: I can see why people will go and buy a clone instead of repairing an engine, but if you already own the engine I think a bit of time should be spent to repair the engine, as it is usually cheaper and more is learnt than driving to hf and picking up a
clone

 

[VoodooChild]

You can be pretty **** confident.

The a crack in your cylinder wall would have no bad effects besides low compression if it was high in the liner, and the loss of compression would hardly make it run funky, possibly a small loss in power. That would also be noticeable with a compression tester after you break the engine in.

Your also much more likely to find a defect in a NEW clone, than you are in an overheated, abused briggs.

Overheating one of these things is hard, only way to do it is run it extremely lean, or get your cylinder fins clogged with grass and dirt. Those are both pretty noticeable (unless the previous owner masked it).

A crack in the cylinder wall could cause you to burn oil, foul plugs, etc.. And yes you would notice AFTER you rebuild the engine.

Yes you are more likely to find a crack in a new clone, but like i said. Replacement warranty.

Overheating any engine is NOT hard, its as simple as not filling it with oil. Which is probably one of the most commonly faults with maintaining an engine. And this destroys the whole engine, to were its not worth rebuilding.