2016 - Beer Crate Racer (winner)

[Desertduler]

Looking good! Boxing in the spindle brackets like you have keeps the king pin angle right where you set them and pretty much takes the flex out out the king pin bores, looks familiar. 15 degrees caster will permit you to use a steering wheel 20 degrees and you better have some strong arms or use handle bars like I do on my red flying pig but hey that sucker turns tight just how I like it. Also remember the longer your front axles are the more jacking effect will happen and the tougher it is to turn, I get away with my geometry because my front axles are short (less overhang) so if I were you I would tack everything together (like I did) first and set your steering up along with your rear axle and set your Ackermann steering (tacked also) and either have someone push or pull you on the kart and make sure that it turns easy enough with the steering wheel that you plan on using. Just my two cents.

 

[chancer]

Looking good! so if I were you I would tack everything together (like I did) first and set your steering up along with your rear axle and set your Ackermann steering (tacked also) and either have someone push or pull you on the kart and make sure that it turns easy enough with the steering wheel that you plan on using. Just my two cents.

Wish i read this a few hours ago.
I just welded the frame and front end completely.
But yes I should have 15° Caster.
Some of this should look Familiar to you.
Next step will be welding on the Front Axle bolts and Setting the Ackerman. Then I can Double check.

I have till Dec. So If I need to cut it off and start over so be it. But I HATE DOING THAT. LOL

Thanks for the info

 

[Poboy kartman]

and either have someone push or pull you on the kart and make sure that it turns easy enough with the steering wheel
.

Yeah....but all the folks Eric knows would take that opportunity to push him off a cliff!!!! (Saftey first! !!!....Don't do it Eric!!!!)

 

[chancer]

15 degrees caster will permit you to use a steering wheel 20 degrees and you better have some strong arms or use handle bars like I do on my red flying pig.

Brett,
Ok what about the Camber. I wanted 10° built into the frame.
(Dont worry guys the tires will run level)
But I have ended up with 15°. What will this cause?
It will all be leveled out with the Axle bolt. But what are the Handling/steering Characteristics caused by this 15° rather than 10°?

 

[Desertduler]

Brett,
Ok what about the Camber. I wanted 10° built into the frame.
(Dont worry guys the tires will run level)
But I have ended up with 15°. What will this cause?
It will all be leveled out with the Axle bolt. But what are the Handling/steering Characteristics caused by this 15° rather than 10°?

Well if you have 15 degrees caster and 15 degrees inward king pin inclination or camber then all the front end will do is lift upwards unless the kart is turned real hard only then will frame jacking occur, you need to have more caster degrees then king pin tip in or the geometry cancels any jacking effect.
Sorry, you need to start over. That is why everything should be tacked together first and then tested and verified before everything is welded up. Do you have a protractor?

 

[Poboy kartman]

Well if you have
the king pin tip in the geometry cancels any jacking effect.
Sorry, you need to start over. Do you have a protractor?

Ummmmm....This is SUPPOSED to be a family friendly forum!

 

[chancer]

Thank you Brett, for the continued help.
Protractor, Well sort of...
I have a plastic thing the kids use at school, I have a Carpenters speed square that has all the degrees on it, and a Protractor app on a smart phone.
So yes and no.
I am not exactly sure which to buy.

I do however understand the basics of angles and degrees.
My problem stems from crappy tools. I can measure and draw, but when it comes time to cut, fit, and weld. It does not usually come out as exact as planned.

Today I got ahead of myself welding.
I measured a bunch of things, including the front end to get it square and straight.
but forgot to double check the angles.

Also My rake is at ZERO. I thought it would be like 5°.

Time to Slow down and start over. But that is ok. I want to do this right.
and
As always for me the best way to learn is to screw it up the first time.
I learn more from my mistakes than any book will ever teach you.

Sorry so long....

 

[Poboy kartman]

It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.... of course....if you really knew what you were doing.....you wouldn't concentrate so much on a stupid frame....but add some carburetors or jackshafts!

 

[chancer]

Well if you have 15 degrees caster and 15 degrees inward king pin inclination or camber then all the front end will do is lift upwards unless the kart is turned real hard only then will frame jacking occur, you need to have more caster degrees then king pin tip in or the geometry cancels any jacking effect.
Sorry, you need to start over. That is why everything should be tacked together first and then tested and verified before everything is welded up. Do you have a protractor?

Ok so Checking with the smart phone Protractor
I have 28° Caster and
16° King pin tip

So its not correct, but I do in fact have More Caster than Camber.

 

[Desertduler]

Thank you Brett, for the continued help.
Protractor, Well sort of...
I have a plastic thing the kids use at school, I have a Carpenters speed square that has all the degrees on it, and a Protractor app on a smart phone.
So yes and no.
I am not exactly sure which to buy.

I do however understand the basics of angles and degrees.
My problem stems from crappy tools. I can measure and draw, but when it comes time to cut, fit, and weld. It does not usually come out as exact as planned.

Today I got ahead of myself welding.
I measured a bunch of things, including the front end to get it square and straight.
but forgot to double check the angles.

Also My rake is at ZERO. I thought it would be like 5°.

Time to Slow down and start over. But that is ok. I want to do this right.
and
As always for me the best way to learn is to screw it up the first time.
I learn more from my mistakes than any book will ever teach you.

Sorry so long....

We all have got ahead of ourselves myself included, this is how we learn, it can be taken care of, the time to fix it is now if not it will haunt you until the end.

 

[Poboy kartman]

Is it done yet????

 

[chancer]

It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.... of course....if you really knew what you were doing.....you wouldn't concentrate so much on a stupid frame....but add some carburetors or jackshafts!

Good point. Both of them!

Is it done yet????

Yep!

 

[chancer]

So I am thinking of buying this Empire Protractor Angle Finder
Any suggestions?
Other than I should have bought it last week!

 

[Desertduler]

That will work, another tip that has worked for me is when I have welded something together and needed to maintain the correct angle is weld a little on one side and then weld a little on the opposite side and keep a protractor handy while you are welding and double check the angle as the welds cool down because as you know as they cool down they shrink and or pull and you can pull in the part in the needed direction by welding just a little more on the side that needs to move towards the weld then check it when it cools somewhat and weld the opposite side.

 

[chancer]

So I introduced My Front end to Mr Sawzall.
and
Then introduced some new Steel to my new Protractor.
Much better now I have all the new pieces Cut and ready to Tack on.

Thanks to you guys for the help and encouragement.
I will follow your advice here in Round 2.

Patience and Perseverance. Along with the willingness to learn and take advice from others.

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

Oh yeah. The new Degrees are:
15° Caster (front beam leaned back)
and
10° Camber (King pins tipped in)

---------- Post added at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------

Ok
I tacked the front beam together, as I continually checked with the Protractor for 10°. All good.
Then I tacked it to the front frame stubs checking at 15°. All good.

Also measured to make sure the Front beam was square with the rest of the frame. Still good.
Pics Tomorrow.
and then I will begin work on the spindles and steering arms. I will try to show how to do Ackerman, and continue to just tack weld as I progress and get your inputs.

Thanks for lookin

 

[landuse]

Eric, this is going to turn out great. You are taking the time to do it right, and it will show in the final product.

 

[Desertduler]

Now you will feel better knowing that you have it right and you can move forward with the next steps.

 

[chancer]

Yep! and it did not take very long to Redo. It just took about 24hrs to get the nerve to take a Sawzall to it. HA HA. Nerve... or wallowing in Defeat! LOL Just had to get humble.

 

[chancer]

With the Front end Tacked in place at my correct angle.
I tacked the front end last night and had to adjust the R side a little.
(it was only 6°). I used a hacksaw and cut the tacks off the top and along the seam. Then with the tack still on the bottom I closed the seam left by the hack saw blade. Now it is right a 10° retacked and rechecked.
I put in my Spindle barrels,That Desert Dueler Machined for me(removed bearings)
and Cut some bolts.
The Spindles are tipped in to 10°, So the Bolts are cut to 10° and welded in the opposite direction, to be parallel with the ground.

I used Extra long 5/8 bolts, and cut them to a length where my wheel bearings will ride only on the Shoulder of the bolt not the threads.
(another Tip from Desertduler)
These are not grade 8. I just had them already. So thats what she gets.

 

[Poboy kartman]

Yeah....not likely to find grade 8 spindle bolts in production karts anyway....and not to re-open a can of worms, but, the most likely fail point is at the weld, and the heat of welding alters the grade 8 specifications anyway.