Wanted: A handful of solid answers. Thank you.

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Bbqjoe

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Before I go any further, let me reiterate: I am rather mechanically inclined, but a total noob to small engines such as these. I claim to know nothing, but tend to jump right in the deep end when I find something new and fun.
Instead of tacking more onto the timing thread, I decided to start a new one.
The breakdown, if you will:
2015 Baja Warrior:
Engine is stamped R200, meaning we have a Rato here.
So far all ordered parts have fit fine under the premise of ordering for a clone.

The carb has been replaced with a Mikuni and air filter.
A GTI torque converter was installed with almost zero modifications or trouble. The crank is threaded, and not tapped.
The governor is completely removed.
The cam is metal with a plastic gear.
The flywheel has magnets on the back side, and there's coils on the engine side. The bike has a working headlight.
Right now it starts on the first pull almost every time.
The plug is a nice tan.
The rear sprocket is stock.
The was no manufacturer sticker or info on the shroud, only a smeared Chinese looking stamp on the inside.

What I'm after:
Obviously, we all want reliability.
I need torque for climbing some pretty steep grades on dirt roads.
I also need the power because I keep adding weight. Soon will be another 16lbs or so with a new gas tank.
I'm not a speed demon, but I do like to kick it in the pants now and then, and don't wish to grenade an engine.

I have read in places that to be safe, it's best to replace rod and flywheel when removing the gov. I guess sometimes this isn't so.
But acting on that info, I have ordered a stock clone billet rod, and flywheel, including 18 lb springs. The flywheel is set at 32° BTDC.

After doing some hindsight research, I find the flywheel does not have the magnets on the backside, thus the new flywheel would negate my electrical power, or charging system as it may be.
I wish to keep that system, especially if I can expand on it some with a battery, real tach and some more lights.

I'm not certain if there's a voltage regulator or not, but I don't believe so. I have not put a volt meter on that system yet to see what's what.

So at this point none of the billet stuff has arrived yet.

A bit more info garnered says I might not need the billet flywheel, but the rod and springs are a good idea.
I have some magnets appx the same size as the ones on the stock flywheel which I suppose I might epoxy on if the flywheel is indeed needed, but there might be some risk involved if they come loose.

Poboy suggests a cam upgrade, and honestly I'm not certain what I would gain due to my lack of knowledge on it.

So there's a number of questions I humbly ask, and seek some solid answers for.

1. Do I need the billet flywheel? (If it fits)
2. Do I need the rod?
3. Should I install 18 lb springs?
4. Should I replace the cam?
5. Assuming I install the rod (to be on the safe side), and springs, what kind of RPM's would I achieve?
How about after the cam?
6. And at what RPM would I be risking blowing my leg off with a stock flywheel?

I appreciate all your help here!

Thanks
 

bob58o

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1.)NO (But if it fits, I would keep it if I plan on spinning over 7k RPM)
THE SAFE AND RESPONSIBLE ANSWER IS YES.
2.)YES (Do this before #3!)
3.)YES (Only after you do 2!, but if you get a cam, it may want different springs)
4.)YES (Get the Black Mamba Jr - Lots of Torque / Relatively low RPM)
5.)With Billet Rod and 18 lb springs and stock cam, you might get 6000+ RPM depending on gearing,
weight, and tire size.
Billet Rod, stock springs, stock cam... 5400 RPM
Stock Rod, stock springs, stock cam... 5400 RPM
Billet Rod, 26 lb springs, Black Mamba Jr Cam.... 7000 RPM (BUT more TQ and HP at all RPMs)
6.) Tough one. Hmmmm 7000+ RPM, 8000+ RPM
 

itsid

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1. Do I need the billet flywheel? (If it fits)
2. Do I need the rod?
3. Should I install 18 lb springs?
4. Should I replace the cam?
5. Assuming I install the rod (to be on the safe side), and springs, what kind of RPM's would I achieve?
How about after the cam?
6. And at what RPM would I be risking blowing my leg off with a stock flywheel?

I appreciate all your help here!

Thanks

unfortunately this is a crossdepency topic, so I can't reuse your list :8
But bear with me (I'll try to keep it short)

If you install the heavier valve springs you will need the billet con rod
(#2 & #3) that'll allow the engine to rev up to ~7krpm (#5)
(~5.5k without the springs)

You should NOT upgrade the cam (#4) if you do not/cannot install a flywheel (#1) which would allow the engine to rev up past 7k rpm
how much would depend on the cam..
So if you plan on going past 7k rpm you will need a cam and the flywheel.
That is, if the flywheel fits of course..

If you want to keep the light.. your out of luck..
just read the description to the e-start flywheel:
Will NOT accommondate the OEM charging system
:(

So personally I'd suggest "no cam no flywheel" for now.

rough estimate on rpms:
CAUSE RPM [needed parts for safety]
-------------------
stock 3600-3800 rpm [none]
governor removal 5000-5500 rpm [still no billet parts needed]
heavier valve springs 6500-7000 rpm [billet con rod]
timing/lift cam 7000 ++ rpm [billet flywheel highly recommended]

'sid
 

bob58o

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"Noob here. So if I made my entire engine out of billet, it could have unlimited RPMs??"

If the gas tank was filled Unicorn Tears from Atlantis harvested by Octane Fairies.
then YES

But Billet funnels are recommended for the Harvesting.
 

bob58o

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So personally I'd suggest "no cam no flywheel" for now.

rough estimate on rpms:
CAUSE RPM [needed parts for safety]
stock 3600-3800 rpm [none]
governor removal 5000-5500 rpm [no billet parts needed]
heavier valve springs 6500-7000 rpm [billet con rod]
timing/lift cam 7000 ++ rpm [billet flywheel highly recommended]

'sid


I think this a GOOD, if not THE BEST stance to take.

Less expensive than a stance like "No Gov means Needs Billet Flywheel"


I don't think you will mind if adopt this Cam = Flywheel clause


Not for me, but for others LOL
 

Joe-405

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If the governor is removed. That stock cam and plastic gear and stock valve springs is a ticking time bomb. I have 3.5 hours on mine without governor and stock springs and one was already short on compression strength when I removed it the other day.

If it were me I would do cam and springs and go with the stock flywheel. And use the timing key. That way you keep your lights also. The biggest gain will be the cam and springs.
 

KartFab

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The electric start billet flywheels don't charge anything. They just have the ring gear added to the same type of billet flywheel. A small 12v battery would be more than enough to power a light and a few extras. The engine doesn't have a regulator/rectifier.

Rpm estimate is dependent on engine load and gearing. When I raced Chris on my last video, we were talking about the torque converter. He only had governor removal, intake/exhaust and rejet.Seems like they hold the engine back from reaching higher rpms... A centrifugal clutch will let the engine rev higher. I'm going to test this out though..... Might be a question of drive unit grenading before flywheel or exploding belts (mini drag bike racer had a belt break)m, wrong center to center? Who knows).

Also, if you do end up getting a cam, there are always trade offs. If you get a high revving (wild/high lift) cam, you destroy low end torque. A torque type cam may not let the engine rev past 5000 rpm. A mild cam gives a good wide powerband boost, but may rev to 6-7k rpm max. Also, if you get a wild/high lift cam you will almost certainly have to upgrade your entire valve train. Mild cams typically can get away with stock valve train and heavier single rate springs.

Lots of debate on flywheels... Is $100 worth the risk? Quality control/consistency across parts isn't as tight as a genuine Honda. Seems like if you don't torque the flywheel nut down after adjusting timing is the bigger risk to spinning it on the crank. There are always risks/built in safety factors... You take what you know and apply it. I've read that you can check how balanced your flywheel is on a balancer of some sort. I've also read that genuine Hondas can handle higher rpms before grenading. Also have read that X individual uses his own anecdotal experience of revving his engine to 6k rpms and being just fine as evidence of all flywheels can be revved this high . I've also read that some people have spun/broke (clones) at the high 5k-6k rpm range, which is also anecdotal evidence.

I personally have revved to 5800 rpms under no load on my Briggs and nothing happened. I bought a billet flywheel though afterwards.

If you keep the stock flywheel, but adjust timing, please lap the flywheel, clean mating surfaces, and torque the flywheel nut down to spec. Arc recommends 65 ft lbs for their flywheels. Not sure about the others.
 

bob58o

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itsid

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I agree on the plastic geared cam... that's likely stronger plastic than the governor.. it's still plastic.

that's why I said timing or lifting cam specifically..

a stock ground cam with steel gear is IMHO a good thing to replace yours with. and would not require any more billet parts of course.

I disagree on installing a performance cam without a flywheel though.

Not because the flywheel WILL explode.. but because it "could"...
And (unlikely but possible) is enough to upgrade IMHO.

it's heavily dependend on the cam what lift, what duration, what timing yadda yadda...
all these matters on what final rpm you'll be able to achieve.

Without the flywheel upgrade you should be safe to round about 8k rpm...
WITH a billet flywheel you should be safe for up to 12k rpm.
And while this doesn't sound like a necessity... security marging on these numbers is roughly ZERO...

So taking just 1k rpm as a security margin (and that is not much at all)
I still say: no flywheel-> NO CAM!
since you can reach 7k rpm without a cam.

'sid
 

bob58o

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To add my personal experience to what KartFab and itsid said...



Specifically For Joe, with a TC....

My Modded 212 gets to 7000 (barely)
with 13.7" Tires and 6.75:1 gearing and a 30 series torque converter
The stock bike weighed 110 lbs.
I weigh 160 lbs

I find it difficult to believe that Joe's Bike will get to 7000 with the stock cam and those big tires.

1.) 19" Tires?

2.) 50 T on rear?

3.) 10T on the TC?


Wanna Guess how fast 7000 RPM is??
Fix your gearing before you do anything!!!!!!!!!

---------- Post added at 12:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFT7hNhop7w
 

Hellion

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The LOW-BUDGET HOBBYIST Option

The casual, low budget hobbyist with a brand new Predator plus the singular knowledge that the engine is "corked up" from the factory because of the governor:

A. Remove Governor (Oi! So risky! I'm in the DANGER ZONE!)
A1. Billet Con Rod (So the engine doesn't grenade itself from DANGER ZONE revs)

The rest of the components can remain the same because the "new redline" that is established by valve float provides a decent safety margin.

Done.

This is all that is needed for the neophyte go kart enthusiast because everyone knows that removing the governor "makes you go faster". :)

P.S. Maybe add the cheap Chinese digital tach to monitor the revs.
 

Poboy kartman

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To add my personal experience to what KartFab and itsid said...



Specifically For Joe, with a TC....

My Modded 212 gets to 7000 (barely)
with 13.7" Tires and 6.75:1 gearing and a 30 series torque converter
The stock bike weighed 110 lbs.
I weigh 160 lbs

I find it difficult to believe that Joe's Bike will get to 7000 with the stock cam and those big tires.

1.) 19" Tires?

2.) 50 T on rear?

3.) 10T on the TC?


Wanna Guess how fast 7000 RPM is??
Fix your gearing before you do anything!!!!!!!!!

---------- Post added at 12:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFT7hNhop7w

Thanks Bob....I didn't think about the gearing...I doubt he'll ever hit 7k even if he wanted...

I spent quite a bit of time researching cams and found some "torque" cams that target 5500 to 6k and are very pocket friendly. I was thinking one of these would be perfect...(I just went through so many I have to go back and find the one I was thinking of)... but no plastic gear!!!! (I only gotta check 4 or 5)...but I got too much to do right now.
 

bob58o

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19" Tires
60T 41/40/420
8T 41/40/420

5400 RPM = 45MPH

The stock bike had a jackshaft to work with those tires.

We've got lots of Joe's and lots of Joe's have lots of minibikes.
Some are Joe Minibikes.
Some are Nacho Minibikes.

I've got to keep this straight.
 

Bbqjoe

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19" Tires
60T 41/40/420
8T 41/40/420

5400 RPM = 45MPH

Dam. It feels like I could do that already, but have never had it wide open out of fear of killing it.

I talked with a guy at ARC.
He wasn't sure if the FW I ordered will fit or not. He said it would be ok to try it out as far as the taper goes, but once it is lapped or torqued down, there's no returning it. I'll file that under DUH?

Right now my FW, rod, and springs are taking a small detour from Georgia to Tallahassee. After last night, they might be there longer than expected.

I believe I will try the FW for size, take some measurements and call in a buddy who's pretty good at fabbing stuff up.
If the FW is correct, and we can do a solid job of mounting magnets, I'll probably go with it, especially since I already parted with the Jing.

The rod is a definite.
The springs also.
The cam, maybe later this month after I see how my finances settle out.

I ordered some mirrors and mounts so I can keep an eye on my dogs if they fall behind, or a car comes up on me. I also ordered a mini tach.
Amazon seems to be taking a long time getting this order on the road, not sure what the hold up is. So much for prime.:censored:

The new 2.1 gallon tank is almost finished getting painted and decaled, and should be on within a week or so.

I just can't help but wonder what speed the chinese tires disintegrate at. :)

Thanks so far guys. Lots of info here.
 

bob58o

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Dam. It feels like I could do that already, but have never had it wide open out of fear of killing it.

I was suggesting changing your gearing to get the most out of your engine.

I think it is geared incorrectly right now.

You want more torque?
You want to change your gearing.

5:1 with a TC and 19" Tires?
3600 RPM gives you 45MPH, so I wonder how fast you were going when you blew up the gov gear?
5000 RPM = 63 MPH
6000 RPM = 75 MPH
7000 RPM = 88 MPH!

I'm guess you spend most time between 30 and 45 MPH.
Make it so that 5400 RPM = 45 MPH
Not so that 3600 RPM = 45 MPH

This will allow your engine to rev higher - and rev faster!
Better Hill Climbing
Better Torque

If you want to push the limits of the flywheel (7000 RPM) you got to get to 58MPH.

Just my personal suggestion.
8T on TC
60T on Rear.
Install the Rod.
Install the Springs.
Send the Flywheel back.
Wait on the cam.
 

KartFab

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...or you could end up like me with a fancy cam flywheel etc and not even able to break 4300 rpms because of gearing/torque converter/carb setup lol. I'm laughing because I want to cry.
 
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