theoreticaly speaking

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rotore

Teh SPIK
Messages
1,663
Reaction score
1
Location
Caguas, Puerto Rico
Lets say if someone were two get 414cc OHV engines like these http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200377915_200377915

and fabricated an exhaust & intake manifold together to adapt a small turbo like a 14b or t25.


will the carbs need to be upgraded?


then a jackshaft setup for the oil pump (since im guessing the turbochargers oil supply will have to be seperate from the engines), amd a car starter and alternator that goes to the jackshaft and have a clutch on the jack shaft.

heres a pik of what im generally speaking of. :
 

Attachments

  • t22.JPG
    t22.JPG
    32.9 KB · Views: 31

jr dragster T

New member
Messages
3,966
Reaction score
8
Location
Cold place
Technically it would work but its not worth it. If you need power that bad use a 350-400 CC motorcycle engine or a sled engine. It wil blow the doors right off any turbo industrial engine.
 

lemegacool

got boost? :)
Messages
804
Reaction score
1
Location
quebec canada
yes but customs turbos are 1337! i like your thinking rotore...! one thought... would you be running the carbs draw through or blow through...
 

frederic

The Junk Man
Messages
385
Reaction score
1
Location
New Jersey
1. The usefulness of the starter will depend on the gear/sprocket ratio between the engines and the jackshaft. To little of a ratio and the starter will struggle to turn the engines over and too much ratio and the starter will have plenty of "leverage" but won't turn them fast enough. This is assuming you are using a mower starter sized for one of the engines.

It's very difficult to syncronize the RPMs of both engines together using throttle cables and carbs. If one engine runs faster than the other the first engine will provide most of the work and the second engine will do very little except to add weight, make noise, and burn gas.

You can weld up a siamesed turbo exhaust and intake manifold no problem, however vibration can and will crack either manifold and/or pull them out of alignment off the gaskets. Further, the exhaust manifold will be very hot and will expand, and that too will cause misaligment issues if not crack/break something.

Exhaust manifolds on turbo vehicles get pretty darn hot. I've even seen them glow at night. You may want to use a soft connection between the two engines on both the intake and exhaust side to alleviate both situations.

Grafting a bike engine or a snowmobile engine might be a lot less work however, though more expensive? Not really sure.

I personally have mated two V6 engines in series, however my friends and I machined a "snout adapter" which replaced the damper on the second engine allowing us to bolt the nose of the second, trailing V6's crank to the tail of the front V6's crank. Because they were "hard linked" with zero opportunity for play, misalignment and so on, we ran them as one V12 engine using an aftermarket fuel injection system (electromotive, actually).

What you're asking can be done. The question is cost versus gain.
 

Rotore

Teh SPIK
Messages
1,663
Reaction score
1
Location
Caguas, Puerto Rico
Technically it would work but its not worth it. If you need power that bad use a 350-400 CC motorcycle engine or a sled engine. It wil blow the doors right off any turbo industrial engine.

i dont really need the power i just need something to keep me busy and my mind working.

yes but customs turbos are 1337! i like your thinking rotore...! one thought... would you be running the carbs draw through or blow through...

they make small enough turbos for mopeds and crap and the way i'm thinking draw through would be easier setup.

1. The usefulness of the starter will depend on the gear/sprocket ratio between the engines and the jackshaft. To little of a ratio and the starter will struggle to turn the engines over and too much ratio and the starter will have plenty of "leverage" but won't turn them fast enough. This is assuming you are using a mower starter sized for one of the engines.

It's very difficult to syncronize the RPMs of both engines together using throttle cables and carbs. If one engine runs faster than the other the first engine will provide most of the work and the second engine will do very little except to add weight, make noise, and burn gas.

You can weld up a siamesed turbo exhaust and intake manifold no problem, however vibration can and will crack either manifold and/or pull them out of alignment off the gaskets. Further, the exhaust manifold will be very hot and will expand, and that too will cause misaligment issues if not crack/break something.

Exhaust manifolds on turbo vehicles get pretty darn hot. I've even seen them glow at night. You may want to use a soft connection between the two engines on both the intake and exhaust side to alleviate both situations.

Grafting a bike engine or a snowmobile engine might be a lot less work however, though more expensive? Not really sure.

I personally have mated two V6 engines in series, however my friends and I machined a "snout adapter" which replaced the damper on the second engine allowing us to bolt the nose of the second, trailing V6's crank to the tail of the front V6's crank. Because they were "hard linked" with zero opportunity for play, misalignment and so on, we ran them as one V12 engine using an aftermarket fuel injection system (electromotive, actually).

What you're asking can be done. The question is cost versus gain.

1. Thats why i thought about using a car starter instead of a lawn mower since the lawn mowers starter would struggle to turn both engines over.

Syncronizing the carbs will be very difficult task if i go with a blow through setup but with a single draw through carb setup it would be eaiser but i would need a bigger carb. any suggestions?

exhaust manifold is a concern but that will take some reasearch on the materials, same for making the intake manifold since compressed air gets hot. and yes i've seen some exhaust manifolds glow especially on my brothers 20b.

i thought of getting a bike engine and slapping a turbo on that but those engines are expensive.

and i know what you mean about mating the two v6 engines, i've been helping a friend convert his 2 rotor 13b-msd into a 3 rotor renesis.
 

frederic

The Junk Man
Messages
385
Reaction score
1
Location
New Jersey
Thats why i thought about using a car starter instead of a lawn mower since the lawn mowers starter would struggle to turn both engines over.

I must have missed you saying "automotive starter" before. Gotcha.

Syncronizing the carbs will be very difficult task if i go with a blow through setup but with a single draw through carb setup it would be eaiser but i would need a bigger carb. any suggestions?

You could probably use a motorcycle carb for the two engines?

i thought of getting a bike engine and slapping a turbo on that but those engines are expensive.

Well, that's par for the course. If you buy a brand new riding mower engine in the 18HP range you're going to spend $500-600 US. If you buy a used riding mower off ebay or craigslist, you sometimes can find the whole darn mower for $250-300.

If you're patient, you can pay even less or nothing at all.

For example, the John Deere in the below pictures cost me nothing. A guy a few towns over had it listed on craigslist as "free completely dead riding mower, must remove by tomorrow". I called and without asking any questions I drove over there with my truck and I shoved the whole thing into the bed and brought it home. What was wrong with this "completely dead" riding mower? Dead battery and the mount on one side to support the mower deck was broken off at the welds, and with that piece gone the deck just falls off when you move the mower (under it's own power or by pushing). Once I charged the battery and welded on the broken metal thing, it started right up.

The Yamaha "Seven" 1100cc bike in the picture was also a freebe. My neighbor's older brother asked me to take a look at it and I did, and after being told two of the four carbs are shot and did not respond to extensive soaking (plus all the other minor things that are wrong with it) he decided to bail on the bike and give it to me. I haven't acquired replacement carbs for it yet (I'm going to eventually replace all four) but I got two of them working really well, at least well enough I can sputter it to another area of my property if it's in the way until I have the time and funds to continue fixing it.

Free overcomes many faults ;-)
 

Attachments

  • mower3--001.jpg
    mower3--001.jpg
    39.7 KB · Views: 3
  • mower3--002.jpg
    mower3--002.jpg
    32.6 KB · Views: 4
  • yamaha-seven-04.JPG
    yamaha-seven-04.JPG
    49.6 KB · Views: 2

frederic

The Junk Man
Messages
385
Reaction score
1
Location
New Jersey
Since we're talking about homemade manifolds, here are some pictures that may show you that it's not that difficult to make your own stuff. These are four-into-one v8 turbo headers but you get the idea.

I milled the turbocharger flange out of 1/2" thick mild steel bar stock and the header flange was just piece of 3/4" thick steel flat I had two of lying around. The tubing is ordinary "black pipe" normally used for gas-line installations. Available at any home center on the cheap and it has a nice wall thickness also. This particular diameter stuff has a hair less than a 1/4" wall - certainly strong enough to bear the weight of a turbocharger, even while glowing from the heat.
 

Attachments

  • f350-turboex-32.JPG
    f350-turboex-32.JPG
    44.8 KB · Views: 4
  • f350-turboex-29.JPG
    f350-turboex-29.JPG
    40.5 KB · Views: 1
  • f350-turboex-26.JPG
    f350-turboex-26.JPG
    37.8 KB · Views: 1
  • f350-turboex-22.JPG
    f350-turboex-22.JPG
    39.1 KB · Views: 2
  • f350-turboex-16.JPG
    f350-turboex-16.JPG
    33.5 KB · Views: 2
  • f350-turboex-09.JPG
    f350-turboex-09.JPG
    35.2 KB · Views: 3

freakboy

the names 'mater
Messages
3,961
Reaction score
2
Location
hick town
Thats not a john deere its a scotts same company as the fertilizer it just looks like a clone of a john deere.
 

frederic

The Junk Man
Messages
385
Reaction score
1
Location
New Jersey
It's a "Scotts" but has many metal stamped labels on the chassis and body that say "Made for Scotts by John Deere". Here's part of the operator manual's cover which states the same. Without the bonnets it looks very generic. If I had to guess, they used the consumer John Deere body/chassis with generic higher-end mower parts and painted them the reddish orange, which is kind of Scotts color since JD us yellow and green usually.

Hey, it was free!
 

Attachments

  • deere.jpg
    deere.jpg
    32.3 KB · Views: 1

Rotore

Teh SPIK
Messages
1,663
Reaction score
1
Location
Caguas, Puerto Rico
I must have missed you saying "automotive starter" before. Gotcha.



You could probably use a motorcycle carb for the two engines?



Well, that's par for the course. If you buy a brand new riding mower engine in the 18HP range you're going to spend $500-600 US. If you buy a used riding mower off ebay or craigslist, you sometimes can find the whole darn mower for $250-300.

If you're patient, you can pay even less or nothing at all.

For example, the John Deere in the below pictures cost me nothing. A guy a few towns over had it listed on craigslist as "free completely dead riding mower, must remove by tomorrow". I called and without asking any questions I drove over there with my truck and I shoved the whole thing into the bed and brought it home. What was wrong with this "completely dead" riding mower? Dead battery and the mount on one side to support the mower deck was broken off at the welds, and with that piece gone the deck just falls off when you move the mower (under it's own power or by pushing). Once I charged the battery and welded on the broken metal thing, it started right up.

The Yamaha "Seven" 1100cc bike in the picture was also a freebe. My neighbor's older brother asked me to take a look at it and I did, and after being told two of the four carbs are shot and did not respond to extensive soaking (plus all the other minor things that are wrong with it) he decided to bail on the bike and give it to me. I haven't acquired replacement carbs for it yet (I'm going to eventually replace all four) but I got two of them working really well, at least well enough I can sputter it to another area of my property if it's in the way until I have the time and funds to continue fixing it.

Free overcomes many faults ;-)

Since we're talking about homemade manifolds, here are some pictures that may show you that it's not that difficult to make your own stuff. These are four-into-one v8 turbo headers but you get the idea.

I milled the turbocharger flange out of 1/2" thick mild steel bar stock and the header flange was just piece of 3/4" thick steel flat I had two of lying around. The tubing is ordinary "black pipe" normally used for gas-line installations. Available at any home center on the cheap and it has a nice wall thickness also. This particular diameter stuff has a hair less than a 1/4" wall - certainly strong enough to bear the weight of a turbocharger, even while glowing from the heat.

thanks for the advice and no i wouldnt be buying brand new engines for this either.
 

TOO FAST

New member
Messages
192
Reaction score
0
Location
Canada
1.

It's very difficult to syncronize the RPMs of both engines together using throttle cables and carbs. If one engine runs faster than the other the first engine will provide most of the work and the second engine will do very little except to add weight, make noise, and burn gas.

Always wondered about this. Would it really be a big issue?
A V8 for example has differences in the power of each cylinder -
(compression variances, wear, manufacturing tolerences etc)
and it works, wouldn't 2 engines powering the same shaft be
a similar effect? Hope you get what I'm asking about.
 

freakboy

the names 'mater
Messages
3,961
Reaction score
2
Location
hick town
it should twin cylinder engines work. and theres no tellin if its gettin equal gas/air mix in each cyl.
 

Rotore

Teh SPIK
Messages
1,663
Reaction score
1
Location
Caguas, Puerto Rico
1.

It's very difficult to syncronize the RPMs of both engines together using throttle cables and carbs. If one engine runs faster than the other the first engine will provide most of the work and the second engine will do very little except to add weight, make noise, and burn gas.

Always wondered about this. Would it really be a big issue?
A V8 for example has differences in the power of each cylinder -
(compression variances, wear, manufacturing tolerences etc)
and it works, wouldn't 2 engines powering the same shaft be
a similar effect? Hope you get what I'm asking about.

but the difference is that i was talking about using 2 carbs a v8 uses one unless your thinking of using ITB's which can be a difficult to tune.

but the difference that frederic is talking about is the the whole combustion cycle like on a v8 while 4 cylinders of the are in the intake part of the cycle the other are in the exhaust.

i think thats what he means.
 

frederic

The Junk Man
Messages
385
Reaction score
1
Location
New Jersey
It's a potentially big issue because of the slop in the chains.

All chains have slop unless the tension is such that you're approaching the fatigue limits of the material. This wouldn't be very smart because at the very limit of the material, applying 5HP would result in the chain breaking. So, it's inevitable that you have "slop".

The more slop you have, the more you are allowing one engine to drag the other because for the reasons you stated Too Fast, no two "identical" engines will produce exactly the same power at the same throttle position or even run at the same RPM.

Maybe it's a big deal, maybe not. I'll make a wild guess that with chains between two 5HP engines you'll have say 9HP instead of 10HP. Might be reasonable to do this anyway, but do note that while one measely horsepower seems like nothing, it is 1/10th of the overall horsepower.

On most automotive engines regardless of style and size, share a common crankshaft which is rigid beyond the normal power levels the engine can produce. This rigidity is important. This is also why performance engine builders replace stock cranks with more expensive, fancy things like what Scat makes.

Also, more cylinders reduce this effect because while one cylinder might be dogging the engine, the other cylinders will be working hard. One dog out of eight is 1/8th whereas one out of two is half - bleah!

So we are comparing apples to oranges here but this is a fun exercise anyway so lets keep going. I'm really enjoying these types of discussions.

And yes, with EVERY multi-cylinder engine some cylinders do more work than others, for the reasons you suggest.

However, it matters less because the crankshaft is rigid.

Chains are not rigid, and always have slop.

There are instances where crankshafts have "slop" however, and I'll give you a real one. Don't forget that most metals, particularly steels, are rigid until they reach a certain point at which time they develop some elasticity, then break.

Spring steel for example has a wide range at which time it's elastic, and why springs are nifty devices for vehicles. You can find the yield point easily by overloading the vehicle and hitting a pothole. SNAP!

Materials like titanium are far stronger, and don't show their elasticity until just about the point where it fractures. It's range of elasticity is very small and way up there on the strength scale, far above steels. But when it breaks, it's usually a fragmented, stringy mess - many fragments and splinters.

That's the tradeoff. The stronger the material, the more brittle it is at it's breaking point. That's why it's often considered "better" to use softer, weaker materials and harden the surface, heat treat the entire thing, or nitride the wear surfaces because you have some elasticity where it can be abused and it won't break, but also it's stronger than the material would be untreated.

Anyway, back to crankshafts and "slop". Here is some real information that may astonish you but also illustrate the idea of "slop" in crankshafts, because there are applications where the power output of an engine approaches the metalurgic limits of the crankshaft.

Top fuel funny cars, like John Force drives, produce about 7000 ft-lbs of torque at the flywheel, with a mere 496 cubic inches. That's 14 HP per cubic inch (or so).

At that power level, even with all the exotic metallurgy and engineering involved making such an engine, the crankshaft actually twists itself during acceleration.

So much so that the cranks are deliberately and precisely machined in such a way that laying on the desk it would appear to have about a 2 degree "twist" to it down the length.

This is because at 8000 RPM, transmitting the power level that it does to the flywheel, the crankshaft twists about 2 degrees from it's "rest" shape, down the length. So, the smart teams machine the crankshaft with approximately 2 degrees of reverse twist so at full throttle, the crankshaft is straight and true.

Of course the next question is what happens when the car hits maximum speed and maintains that speed for the last moments of the race? Wouldn't the crankshaft lose it's twist?

Yes, it would, but in funny car racing that never happens because the cars are still accelerating as they cross the finish line so the twist of the crankshaft induced by the power levels remains approximately constant.

In funny cars the same thing applies to the single camshaft and the gears directly driving it from the crank. The gears actually change shape at those power levels, and this too needs to be taken into consideration both in durability and from a meshing standpoint. The mesh is much tighter at rest than it is during the race, and often times the gears aren't so round at the end of the race because they're not thick and massive enough to endure these forces for any length of time. That's why after a 4-second race they're usually thrown away and replaced.

So there are situations where crankshafts can have "slop", and that's why I went through the whole funny car thing - to show you how much the scale of the numbers matter. Certainly you won't "twist" a lawnmower crankshaft in this fashion, instead if you exceed it's metalurgic strength it will just break.

But, when you introduce chains and a jackshaft, you are introducing slop that can impact how things run. By allowing one engine to "easily" run at a different power level than another through the slop of two chains and a jackshaft, you're encouraging the scenario where one engine "drags" the other engine along. For all the reasons you mentioned - tolerances, wear, compression variances, etc, this matters more because of the slop of the mechanical link between the two engines.

Now, you may be questioning my information here and that's fine, because the scale of the numbers works both ways. If we consider two 5HP mower engines chained together, well, you didn't take chain slop into consideration you would probably expect 10HP. The reality is the slop will give you something like 8 or 9 HP rather than 10. It's not enough to bicker about, but if you're having tuning issues with the engine, it is a pain in the butt do deal with because the slop is there.

It would be far better to mount the engine's crankshafts to each other in a more rigid fashion. While I'm not designing something here maybe the best technical answer is to remove the shroud and pull start off one engine and create an adapter that slips on one engine and attaches to the flywheel of the second engine, so they are in series. A large aluminum round thing might do the trick. Then you'll not lose that 1 or 2 idealistic HP.

Your approach would depend how much of an idealistic, purist "gearhead" you want to be. I bet you can figure me out by now ;-) And, you do not have to be like me. Just don't had the HP ratings of the two engines and expect that exact output if you chain them together with a jackshaft.

I hope that was somewhat coherent because it's far past my bedtime.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top