Predator 420cc on a Kandi Spyder 150gka-2 Question on Ratios

[gr8hairy1]

There used to be a beer joint in Waycross (or nearby) called Mary's Store. Coldest beer on earth.

Gotcha. That makes much more sense lol.

Nope, I guess they closed down a few years back.
More than anything Waycross has restaurants. It's kinda crazy. There is a Cracker Barrel that just opened. I have never seen a Cracker Barrel that wasn't next to a highway. The closest highway is an hour away.

 

[Greasyxb9]

Quite heavy compared to my 44 magnum. I'd say maybe 10 lbs or more?

 

[gr8hairy1]

Quite heavy compared to my 44 magnum. I'd say maybe 10 lbs or more?

That is a beast. If you're saying the weight will be too much because of the torque it's putting on the shaft because of it being unbalanced (sticking out the side of the engine), I think once the engine is running it shouldn't be an issue. There's a YouTube video I remember watching talking about gyro precession.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeyDf4ooPdo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0

Because the shaft is spinning the most while running, when going over bumps and jumps it should cancel out most of the downward and upward forces from it being unbalanced.

Though I am by no means an engineer or anything. I just watch YouTube videos.
____________

On a related note, why do clutches have to be so ridiculously expensive? How is there not more of a market for used clutches?
I would gladly spend $200 on a used driven and driver clutch set. Or even $150 for the 2 without and other hardware. Oh well.

 

[Greasyxb9]

Possibly but that is just spinning forces. You also have to add in the force of the belt pulling on the driven and the force of the sheaves moving in and out. Bumps and stuff really dont matter to the engine. It's just a large amount of weight hanging pretty far off the crankshaft along with other forces working all together. That's why racing karts usually have the clutch flipped inboard to have the chain as close to the side cover as possible.

To be honest it really isn't to crazy expensive. The drive clutch is about $200 and the driven clutch is about $175. A racing clutch is $250 to $500. A 1" clutch is on the higher end of that spectrum and you don't get any benefits of the variable drive in a racing clutch like you do with a torque converter.

 

[gr8hairy1]

I do agree. That is definitely a step up in weight. I wonder if there are any specs for predator/honda engines on what weight their shafts can handle. And too, gyro precession makes movement in the direction of the precession much easier (turning left for most torque converter setups), but movement in the opposite direction (turning right) becomes much harder.
As you said, lots of forces.


Racing clutches sure are expensive, but for the 780 and even the 94c, there's not a whole lot of mechanical things going on. I used to work at a machine shop, I get there are production and design costs, but it seems like these clutches have a pretty high profit margin. Considering how long ago Comet started, it seems like competition from somewhere, some country, would have closed some of that profit margin gap. It's happened for the 30 series and smaller.

I'll just trust there's more going into making these than I realize.

For long-term value, absolutely, they are worth it for me. Doesn't make the upfront cost any less painful though.

 

[Greasyxb9]

Well one thing I found out tonight is the 94c I have had a large cast portion for a starter belt from a golf cart. I'm going to order a different and compare the two. So give me a week or two and I'll have a new one to show. From what I've read today in manuals I found online and ordered a normal 206095 94c drive clutch.... it should only weigh 6 lbs. Mine weighs over 10 lbs at least with the larger cast portion. I'm really debating on returning the 44c setup for a pure 94c drive and 790 driven because the initial reduction is 3
38:1 and also has a .54:1 overdrive. The 44c is 2.43:1 in low and 1:1 in high. I really like the idea of the deeper reduction and the overdrive.

I completely agree with you on price margin. The 30 and 40 series Chinese versions are tons cheaper then the comet brand. Considering they have been in production for almost 50 years you would think prices would be a bit more reasonable. One thing I'm not sure about is the Chinese quality.

 

[gr8hairy1]

Well one thing I found out tonight is the 94c I have had a large cast portion for a starter belt from a golf cart. I'm going to order a different and compare the two. So give me a week or two and I'll have a new one to show. From what I've .....

.....quality.

I was just looking up that info on what model of 94c I would need. Thank you so much! I look forward to hearing your progress. It is exactly what I will be doing in the near future.

 

[Greasyxb9]

I started a thread.... manco quicksilver with 420 predator..... no one has really replied so I stopped posting in it lol. The thread where the guy wants to go 300 kph has tons of replies. I'm not really looking for help though. I raced to karts for years and was building serious 390 genuine hondas before the clone thing even took off or there was any aftermarket support or parts for them. I'm just being cheap this time around and racing with my kids in the back yard.

 

[gr8hairy1]

... I talked to Don from comet this past Friday and he recommended the 94c although the 780 still runs the 1 3/16" belt and he said to run a 790 780 or 770 driven. I don't understand that but what do I know....

I read this post from slonomo on buggiesgonewild.com:

"I've been told the 94c is an upgrade for any stock golf cart clutch, but it's not as efficient as the 780.

The 94c is a more simple design and concept if you want to tune and have different setups for different reasons. Some say the 94c is "clunky" or makes "squeaky" noises. This is from the plastic pucks moving around or "sliding" to make the sheaves close. There is more surface area friction going on here.

If you want one setup that will cover all bases, go with the 780 because it has a smoother operation inside the clutch, less friction to get the sheaves to close. Any roller style clutch will be smoother and more efficient.

Either one will work fine, just really depends if you want to tune the clutch and tinker with engagement and shift rpms."

http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/clone-engine-swaps/90967-comet-94c-vs-comet-780-clutch.html
_________________


So yeah. There's a number of opinions and no central location of information to easily fact check and compare. Comet NEEDS to get all the info together about their products and make a webpage for it.



On ratios for the 790 780 and 770 I found some info on 6x6world.com.

riotwarrior posted:

"This is all based on a 780 Comet primary or the drive/engine clutch...that's what all these calculations are based on a 780 primary and / ??? secondary as follows

Thus here we go with 4 different setups and gear ratio spreads.

780 / 860 secondary
860 = 11.25" diameter
4.42:1 low range and 1:1 hi range with 1 3/16" belt...different if 1 1/4" belt used....

....780 / 790 secondary
790 = 8.5" diameter
3.35:1 low range and 0.5:1 hi range or .5 OD

780 / 780 secondary
780 = 9.25" diameter
3.71 low range and 0.7:1 hi range or .71 OD

780 / 770
770 = 9.85" diameter
3.95:1 low range and 0.76:1 hi range or .76 OD"

http://www.6x6world.com/forums/transmissions/28511-770-780-790-860-secondary-cluthes.html
_________________



I think most comet drivers have the same fully engaged diameter on the inside, so the hi range should be the same. No idea on outside diameter for initial low range.

 

[Greasyxb9]

The 94c and 780 drive clutches are the same dimensions so the gearing would be the same. I have pdf manuals of both and parts break downs.

I can understand and agree the 780 is smoother then the 94c because of the rollers. But there is no way the 780 will take more horsepower in my opinion. I've found some places claiming the 780 will only take 20 horsepower. I can see why.... it only has three rollers that make contact with the cover so that's very small contact points. But the 94c has up to nine pucks touching the cover. And if you're really serious you can get the ribbed cover which is a positive lockup and will never move once under power and locked in. I have the ribbed cover.

Both clutches have 1 3/8" belts and spacer kits are available for the 94c but I'm not sure on the 780 or the driven clothes if there are.

I think a lot of people go with the 780 because of smoothness and being in golf karts and 6x6 or 8x8 vehicles. I'm not looking for smoothness. I want positive lockup and to know it's not slipping inside the cover once locked up. It's the same reason why you see some people complain about racing clutches even in cars. There is no grey area or slip area its either locked or unlocked.

 

[gr8hairy1]

That answers a question about ribbed drivers I didn't realize I should've thought about. I guess in my head I thought it was ribbed to reinforce the dome. It locking things in place makes so much sense. I love looking up and figuring out things, not sure how I missed that one. Thank you much. Plus the explanation of the differences between the 2 drivers.

 

[Randy H]

This 780 was a site admins at BigBlockCarts.com. He said around 7500RPM it exploded. The engine was a well built Briggs Vanguard v twin (23 hp stock). I have no idea of the actual HP, guessing more than 23.

Here's a link but you have to register to view posts.

http://bigblockcarts.com/viewtopic.php?p=2323#p2323

 

[Greasyxb9]

Hmmm makes you wonder if the rollers have stops or just keep pushing outward. That force has to go somewhere and it just blew apart. Interesting

---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------

It definitely looks like the 94c I have is a much thicker cover then the 780. There is also a lot more heft to the sheave that holds the pucks too.

 

[Greasyxb9]

So I got my new 94c over the weekend while I was away for the holiday. The 206095 is definitely much lighter then the older one I have. The inside sheave is cast aluminum like the outside sheave. The older one I have is cast iron. I have no worries anymore about the crank being over stressed.

 

[gr8hairy1]

Great news! I bought some rims finally! They came in this last Thursday.


I checked with a local golf cart seller where I live, Whitaker's Golf Carts, like ezcome-ezgo suggested. They said they didn't have any used or old stock rims. I find that hard to believe, but whatever. They wanted $80 for 2 but I found a pair on buggies unlimited.com for $49.58($24.79 a piece). After taxes a little over $53. Plus they had a promo going on for free shipping. Apparently I got the last ones. It now says they're out of stock and the price went up a little bit.

https://m.buggiesunlimited.com/golf-cart/10x8-matte-black-steel-wheel-(3:5-offset)/1731

Fits the 4x4 aluminum hubs from BMI kart perfectly. The only difference from the stock rims is these are a half inch narrower.

However, I do not have anything to help unmount or mount tires. But I'm cheap (poor) lol. And I did not want to scratch the rims and cause rust to start. I still can't believe I did it, but I did it with only boots and locking pliers.

I put my boots on and started jumping on it with my heel closest to the bead. After quite awhile I managed to break the bead loose on both sides of the rims. I did use one screw driver to get the tires off the old rims, but I didn't care about scratching those up, even so it didn't scratch it too much. On both the old and new rims, when I clamped the locking pliers on, I first put a leather glove over the lip. Doing it that way didn't leave a mark on either one.

Getting the tires on the new rims was tough. Just clamped the pliers on and muscles the tires on. It took me to my limit getting them on. Felt like I was going to pass out after I was done.

I had been putting off installing the new axle until I was able to put the rear tires on. I didn't want to deal with the rust building up while I was waiting on being able to mount the tires. It's always humid here so everything rusts really fast.

Took longer than I expected to get everything installed. I have friends visiting (aka people messing up my plans of working on the go kart). Unfortunately, I'm having issues getting the jack shaft tightened on the driven part of the torque converter. It seems like the washers are putting too much pressure on the inside part of the bearing, on the backside of the torque converter mounting plate. Once tight, the jackshaft doesn't want to spin. I think if I had the right washers, I would've been able to get the sprocket tightened in place and the chain sized and installed. Other than that, everything is done! After not having a rear axle and tires on for over 6 months, it can at least roll now!

I would've been able to finish it today, but the horrible people visiting forced me to go to the beach and drink beers (Modelo!). Hopefully, I'll be able to stop by a hardware store and pick up the washers I need. If so, I'm finishing it tonight or tomorrow evening(in theory).

Here's a photo from last night once I got the tires on around 1am (I'm desperate to get this thing running)

 

[Functional Artist]

Lookin' Good!

Idea

Put spike points on the ends of your rear axle (part stickin' out)
...like on the old Roman Chariots

Just in case any competition tries to pass ya
...or may be useful to run off unwanted house guests too

 

[gr8hairy1]

Lookin' Good!

Idea

Put spike points on the ends of your rear axle (part stickin' out)
...like on the old Roman Chariots

Just in case any competition tries to pass ya
...or may be useful to run off unwanted house guests too

Lol. That would definitely be a unique look!

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

The buggy is all put together!

Notice I did not say running
Not getting any spark. The motor has always started on the first or second pull. I don't understand what changed. Every few weeks I have been starting it and letting it run about 5 minutes. Though the past month and a half I haven't started it. Been preoccupied getting the wiring done.

I pulled off the spark plug wire and plugged in a new spark plug I had sitting in the garage. I did this around 9:00pm. It was completely dark outside, so it would've been easy to see a spark. I usually start it with the pull cord, but since I was having trouble I also tried the key, but no dice.

Any ideas?

 

[gr8hairy1]

Low oil! That or faulty low oil sensor.

I was doing some reading last night and found a few people had that problem. I had checked the dip stick, but I did not wipe it off and properly check the level. I was just making sure it had oil. I didn't even think about the low oil sensor.

Cut the yellow wire and after a few pulls it fired right up. No time for fun. Running late for work. I'll be taking it out this afternoon!

 

[bob58o]

Low oil! That or faulty low oil sensor.

I was doing some reading last night and found a few people had that problem. I had checked the dip stick, but I did not wipe it off and properly check the level. I was just making sure it had oil. I didn't even think about the low oil sensor.

Cut the yellow wire and after a few pulls it fired right up. No time for fun. Running late for work. I'll be taking it out this afternoon!

Don't forget to fill the oil to the proper level along with cutting the wire.

 

[gr8hairy1]

Don't forget to fill the oil to the proper level along with cutting the wire.

Indeed. And I found an 8 tooth sprocket! Send me your address and I can mail your 9 tooth back to you.

---------- Post added at 08:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------

So....it broke

Nothing I replaced at least. The jackshaft on the torque converter broke, which damaged the bearings and overheated the chain. So now the chain binds and has multiple spots that doesn't like to easily move.

The jackshaft on my 30 series looked different than any I've seen. Once it broke I understood why. I'm guessing the end the c clip goes on was damaged or not working right and the guy I bought the buggy from, welded a bolt on the end of the jackshaft to hold it on.

The weld broke and the outside bearing fell out somewhere. That must have put pressure on the inside bearing because now it's stuck on the jackshaft.

I drove it around the yard (5 acres) once and checked the bolts. Then drive it around a few more times and that was it. I stopped because every once and awhile I'd feel a shake. That's when I seen all this. But everything's on the torque converter was really hot. Guessing the chain was damaged from the high heat. No discoloration on anything and everything else looks good.

Looks like new jackshaft, 2 bearings, and a chain....for a torque converter I'm planning on replacing at some point. Oh well.

I found the jackshaft on BMI Karts. Just got to figure out the bearing sizes.