Predator 420cc on a Kandi Spyder 150gka-2 Question on Ratios

[gr8hairy1]

I recently bought a Kandi Spyder 150gka-2 go kart off Craigslist. It's a 2013 but was sold new in 2014.

It's a big boy. Notice the weight (600lbs)
http://www.kandiusa.com/product_veh.php?id=13

The original owner swapped out the 150cc GY6 engine for a Predator 420cc. Lost reverse but gained some torque.

He also installed a pretty nice torque converter from GTC

http://gtcmanufacturing.com/GTC-Gokart-Torque-Converter-1.aspx

I bought it under the assumption everything is good. In general, it is great. Front suspension could be replaced, ball joints need to be replaced...in general small stuff.

The downside.....
After talking to GTC, great customer service btw, they said they did not know what go kart he was putting the motor and torque converter on. This go kart has 22 in rear tires!

I believe the clutch in the converter is a 12t and the axle sprocket is 42t.
12t - 42t - 22inch tires = 3.5 ratio!
To say the least, this thing destroys belts in no time.

He included the original 150cc GY6 with the purchase. I have thought about swapping it back in, but part of the frame was slightly modified for the new engine setup. And ideally, I would like to keep the 420cc on it and use the 150cc in a future kart project.

In a perfect world, I would love a fast go kart that is great for off-roading, but off-roading is more important for me.

I would like to stay away from a jackshaft if possible (still confusing for me) but also I do not have a welder. If a jackshaft if the only way to go... then so be it.

GTC said the cheapest route might be going for a huge axle sprocket, 72t to 82t. For clearance issues, I'd rather not. Plus I'd really really like to have a split sprocket because the original owner welded the hubs onto the axle, because he said "the splines wear wearing down and they were getting some slippage". So yeah, basically the axle is welded on. Having a split axle sprocket would help out immeasurably for any future work. The problem is finding a split sprocket that large and one that uses a strong enough chain.

I'm not sure what chain it has on it but the chain seems to be holding up well and is pretty solid looking.

Here's a link to the sprocket that is on it. He replaced the sprocket because he thought something was wrong with it but there wasn't (I don't fully remember why he got it, just that it was the same as the one on it and he ended up not needing it, but put it on anyway because it was newer).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JT-42T-Ste...ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2

What is the cheapest way for me to get the ratios this kart needs?

Thank you in advance.

 

[bob58o]

I have been told that the chain will have it stamped on it. #420, #428, # 40,...?
Guessing #428, maybe #420 sprocket. Chain may not be right for the sprocket?

Not sure what you are going to do about that welded-on hub, but if you have a 12T 5/8" Bore #41 front sprocket, then you can swap an 8T #41 C Type 5/8" Bore Sprocket and immediately increase the belt life, the torque, the off road ability, and the fun by 50%.

The price you pay is $15 plus decreased chain and sprocket life.

http://www.azusaparts.com/ProductPage.aspx?catID=1&subCatID=65&ssCatID=2&productID=959

SPROCKET - "C" TYPE, STEEL, #40/41 CHAIN, 5/8" BORE, INTEGRAL KEY, NO SET SCREW, 8 TOOTH


Part #: 2182-K

Price: $14.95

Made with case-hardened steel and hobbed teeth, "C" Type Sprockets have a hub on both sides. All sprockets on this page with a "K" in their part no. have a key broached into the hub rather than a keyw

 

[bob58o]

Oh wait. 420cc with a 1" 30 series TC?
That engine is too big for that TC. GTC sold some BS.
Not sure what is best to do now.

 

[Randy H]

http://www.bmikarts.com/Motor-Mount-Plate-with-Jackshaft-and-Bearings_p_1051.html

If you ultimately decide on a jackshaft, I would.

The description at GTC says it comes with a 10 tooth sprocket.

 

[landuse]

I think you have yourself a problem there. No matter how small you go on the TC sprocket, your axle sprocket is still going to be too small for any measurable ratio change that will help you out. You are going to have to either get the jackshaft, or go for a larger axle sprocket. I would say 72T at minimum. That will give you a 6:1 ratio which is still borderline for 20" tyres

 

[mckutzy]

Hello and welcome...

Good you posted pics... Got a few more of the kart itself, engine area ect...

 

[KingCobra]

I recently bought a Kandi Spyder 150gka-2 go kart off Craigslist. It's a 2013 but was sold new in 2014.

It's a big boy. Notice the weight (720lbs)
http://www.kandiusa.com/product_veh.php?id=13

The original owner swapped out the 150cc GY6 engine for a Predator 420cc. Lost reverse but gained some torque.

He also installed a pretty nice torque converter from GTC

http://gtcmanufacturing.com/GTC-Gokart-Torque-Converter-1.aspx

I bought it under the assumption everything is good. In general, it is great. Front suspension could be replaced, ball joints need to be replaced...in general small stuff.

The downside.....
After talking to GTC, great customer service btw, they said they did not know what go kart he was putting the motor and torque converter on. This go kart has 22 in rear tires!

I believe the clutch in the converter is a 12t and the axle sprocket is 42t.
12t - 42t - 22inch tires = 3.5 ratio!
To say the least, this thing destroys belts in no time.

He included the original 150cc GY6 with the purchase. I have thought about swapping it back in, but part of the frame was slightly modified for the new engine setup. And ideally, I would like to keep the 420cc on it and use the 150cc in a future kart project.

In a perfect world, I would love a fast go kart that is great for off-roading, but off-roading is more important for me.

I would like to stay away from a jackshaft if possible (still confusing for me) but also I do not have a welder. If a jackshaft if the only way to go... then so be it.

GTC said the cheapest route might be going for a huge axle sprocket, 72t to 82t. For clearance issues, I'd rather not. Plus I'd really really like to have a split sprocket because the original owner welded the hubs onto the axle, because he said "the splines wear wearing down and they were getting some slippage". So yeah, basically the axle is welded on. Having a split axle sprocket would help out immeasurably for any future work. The problem is finding a split sprocket that large and one that uses a strong enough chain.

I'm not sure what chain it has on it but the chain seems to be holding up well and is pretty solid looking.

Here's a link to the sprocket that is on it. He replaced the sprocket because he thought something was wrong with it but there wasn't (I don't fully remember why he got it, just that it was the same as the one on it and he ended up not needing it, but put it on anyway because it was newer).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JT-42T-Ste...ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2

What is the cheapest way for me to get the ratios this kart needs?

Thank you in advance.

Yes and it retailed for approx. $2,500. The drive-train is junk and the chain sprocket set-up is #420, The rear hubs are easily stripped as in the loose spline play. That stock rear axle cannot take a lot of torque and IF you are serious about a conversion, I would swap out that axle in favor of a 1 1/4" 1/4 keyed axle for some serious stable torque at the rear wheels without the worry of stripping CAST hubs. The axle is just as much junk as the hubs. Find my build thread and you will see what I mean. I have an old axle and the set of hubs laying on the floor in my shop just waiting to be lathed to 1" and keyed for recycled use in a go kart.

Trust me, change out that rear axle and yes, that kart is heavy but I found mine very well built for a China throw-a-way. I also had one before my Kandi 150-2 and someone had mounted a Ninja 500cc engine on it and it was a screamer!!!!! Maybe you should think more in that line for this kart. I wish I had the SINGLE seater. Those look very versatile and I will be watching a couple on Craigs in my area!!

My sprocket and chain respectively was 60t X #420 and a very heavy duty set up just thirsting for the right power house!! I also love the disc brakes. One big disc in the rear and one little one ( maybe 5") at each front wheel.

Maybe you should consider the 670cc Preditor if not, a motorcycle engine in which most big un's use the 520 chain. Cut that axle off and get rid of it!!! Maybe you could use that GY6 transmission with a jack shaft. I don't know, I never looked that deeply into it.

California is the USA branch for Kandi Parts and can be found on Ebay. They wasted no time getting me my new axle and hubs. Can't wait to see yours and what you decide!! Thanks, The Snake...........

 

[gr8hairy1]

Thank you everyone for your responses. I will try to get pics today. I work 14 hours today :-(, but at least I work at home. KingCobra, I agree. I'm thinking a new rear axle is best.

Does anyone have any recommendations on axles? Are there brands or is it just grade of metal?

Does anyone have any experience installing a jackshaft? Any rough estimates of how much it would cost? More importantly, understanding the sprocket ratios with a jackshaft.

 

[gr8hairy1]

I ran out really quick and snapped some pics before the sun went down. I tried to get the axle sprocket in focus but it kept focusing on the grass.

The belt in the one picture is a brand new belt that has maybe 2 miles on it. Mostly driven on hard ground/grass.

I also included pictures of the 150cc GY6. The more pictures I look at of these go karts with the original engine installed, the more parts I see missing (pieces of frame that hold it in place). I think that about sets it in my mind that it will be saved for a smaller off road go kart that will be crazy fun

 

[Randy H]

I've been studying your predicament. First I should say I'm a low budget old guy. I would try to save and use that axle and related pieces, until they are unusable, worn out.

In one of those pics it looks like there is enough room to use a 54 tooth sprocket. That and a 8 tooth, like Bob suggested gives you a 6.75 ratio. The sprocket diameter is about 8 3/4".

http://www.bmikarts.com/Sprocket-40-54T-2-1316-Bolt-Circle_p_2953.html

I'd hack it in two pieces with a jigsaw, hacksaw, cutoff wheel.

Otherwise your looking at a dual jackshaft setup.

Say you start with a 4.2:1 ratio. Add a jackshaft with a 10 tooth drive sprocket and a 20 tooth driven sprocket. That's 2:1. 4.2x2=8.4. Whoo hoo.

 

[gr8hairy1]

Randy H, I agree. I'm going to need to go with a jackshaft.

I can cut the current axle sprocket off, but unless I try to cut the welds on the spindle, I won't be able to get another axle sprocket on it (unless it's a split sprocket, though I'm not sure if it would be compatible with the sprocket mount that's on it). I don't like the idea that any wheel bearing, axle bearing, or sprocket repair will involve cutting welds and then re-welding things back together. Even though the rear passenger spindle is welded onto the wheel, it still wobbles. That can't be good for the wheel, tire, or suspension at high speeds.

You mentioned a dual jackshaft setup? I haven't heard of that before. Sounds intense.

Speaking of jackshafts, do you (or anyone) have any recommendations on where to put the jack shaft? All of the red tube frame above the engine is not attached to the swing arm that the engine is bolted to.

Could the 2 arms that come out the back from the old engine mount be used? Or for strength would some kind of half cage need to be welded together near the back of the engine to make a strong enough platform for the jack shaft?


So a GTX Series 30 torque converter isn't strong enough for this engine? Why? Will it break? If a stronger one is needed, what brand/model is recommended?

I don't want to spend too much money, but I'd rather know that what I buy is going to last and not cost me more money down the road.

Thank you to everyone again. I wish I had friends like you that lived near me

 

[Randy H]

GTC 30 series, Comet originally rated that unit at 8hp. Are the guys at GTC exaggeraters? With a proper gear ratio you might get ok belt life, likely not as good as a Chinese less than $100 40 series knockoff.

I think swapping the axle is a good move. Personally I wouldn't go with the original. Not sure about bearing and flangette issues.

I, with reckless abandon, and no hesitation would hack out that square tube and flatstock. Find some way to brace the engine in a way that it isn't right in the way of your chain/sprocket.

Maybe then a plate like this would be useful.
http://www.bmikarts.com/Used-Clutch-Mount-without-Jackshaft_p_5375.html

 

[KingCobra]

I see you are already set up for a normal engine and that axle may just be ok at least for now. It's too bad that you cannot slide that sprocket to line up with a jack shaft sprocket if needed. That is the only draw back. I don't know much about welding pot metal but it appears to be solid. IF so, them bearings are the best I've ever seen for sure.

I'm glad someone did the hard work. Why do you need a Jack shaft? That might be a difficult task considering how close those clutches are to the driven sprocket now. That engine doesn't run? What size is it? I like that set up over mine!!! Too bad you an't fit a V twin in there. I know there isn't much room to play with cause the GY6 is UNDER a cage and closer to the seat frame area. Take your time and do some thinking here because you are in a better position to have a great running buggy YOUR way! I will also see what ideas I can come up with. BTW, they build that axle in a way that nothing common will interchange or fit it! I never had success to measure the three hole flange bearing holders to see if that is even common but you would think so. I think you should go 1 1/4" and you should be very happy. I would go to about 46" instead of the 42" and have the ends of the axle at 1" x 5" deep so you can slide on a nice set of 4 on 4" wheel hubs so you can run golf cart wheels and cool tires!! I like the 7" by 8" wheel with the 2" back space offset for tire clearance. ALSO, have you spun the axle to see if the tires spin straight?? I wonder if that was done professionally. Don't look half bad. Too bad you weren't closer and could use my old axle and hubs modified before installation.

Experiment and explore that GY6 transmission. I'm curious to know if it can be adapted in a way to work with something else. ALSO, if you are in SNOWMOBILE country, search out and see if any of those components would work. They have awesome clutch systems. Very nice engine set up! I would like to do a go kart using a snowmobile engine just for kicks at least once Here we only have water cooled Jet Ski vehicles..... Snowmobiles for water

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

I would run what you have there as is. If that sprocket has play in it, it doesn't look like it's due to the welds. I would remove the bolts, clean it all up a little and reassemble. Can't tell from the pics, but I assume the axle sprocket and TC sprocket are aligned with one another?

 

[gr8hairy1]

I would run what you have there as is. If that sprocket has play in it, it doesn't look like it's due to the welds. I would remove the bolts, clean it all up a little and reassemble. Can't tell from the pics, but I assume the axle sprocket and TC sprocket are aligned with one another?

The sprocket on the axle and TC are good. They are aligned "seem" good. The issue with the current setup is the welds on the tire spindles have to be cut off just to replace the sprocket. If I can get the clearance for what I would like on the jackshaft, I might be able to use the current 42t axle sprocket, but the axle sprocket mounting is not movable.

The belts are getting destroyed because the ratio is way too low. To fix without a jackshaft I would need a giant axle sprocket which would definitely affect the trail riding ability.

---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:07 PM ----------

GTC 30 series, Comet originally rated that unit at 8hp. Are the guys at GTC exaggeraters? With a proper gear ratio you might get ok belt life, likely not as good as a Chinese less than $100 40 series knockoff.

I think swapping the axle is a good move. Personally I wouldn't go with the original. Not sure about bearing and flangette issues.

I, with reckless abandon, and no hesitation would hack out that square tube and flatstock. Find some way to brace the engine in a way that it isn't right in the way of your chain/sprocket.

Maybe then a plate like this would be useful.
http://www.bmikarts.com/Used-Clutch-Mount-without-Jackshaft_p_5375.html

Wow, yeah, that's definitely lower than what I would want. Any idea if I can use the back plate of the 30 series torque converter with the 40 series pulleys?

I like that plate you linked. I'd be wonderful to have a bolt on plate to do what I need.

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

Get that 8T sprocket Bob recommended for your TC, you should be much better off.

 

[Randy H]

The backplate won't work because there isn't a 40 series belt short enough, other issues too. GoPowerSports sells a 40 series with back plate it isn't cheap. It would simplify things though.

Consider that a backplate has a built-in jackshaft. Without a backplate, you will need a dedicated jackshaft. If you want to retain the 42 tooth axle sprocket, you will need another jackshaft. It becomes a slightly complex compound gearing situation.

The jackshaft plate at BMI is originally used with a Tecumseh 10hp. The bolt patterns (420 vs. Tecumseh 10hp) aren't the same. I used a Manco plate that was used with that Tecumseh. Minor drilling , die grinder action took care of that issue.

How much room do you have in front of your engine?

Hope you can follow my rambling.

Hey I'm a rambling guy.

Rambling, rambling I'm a ramblin' guy - ramblin oh yes, I'm ramblin' -- Ramblin'. (Steve Martin 1976)

 

[kevbo22]

Honestly you do need a 40 series. Because you dont have a welder, that limits how to go forward. Looks pretty tight in there too. BMI sells a box motor mount with a built in jackshaft that would help you out a lot here I think. I have the same buggy, here is how I did mine.
http://www.bmikarts.com/Motor-Mount-Plate-with-Jackshaft-and-Bearings_p_1051.html

 

[bob58o]

Get that 8T sprocket Bob recommended for your TC, you should be much better off.

This EZ EZ guy sounds smart! LOL
Spend the $15, then if you are not happy, come back and you can throw the sprocket at my face. It is the simplest thing to try. This is the first time I have ever recommended the 8T sprocket. LOL, JK I recommend it at least once a week.

---------- Post added at 10:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

Heck, PM me your address and I ship you one of mine. If I'm donating, you get the used B type sprocket, not the new C type sprocket.
Not really a donation tho, I'm buying smiles for all of you, which makes smiles for me.

 

[gr8hairy1]

I see you are already set up for a normal engine and that axle may just be ok at least for now. It's too bad that you cannot slide that sprocket to line up with a jack shaft sprocket.....

....Why do you need a Jack shaft? That might be a difficult task.....

...ALSO, have you spun the axle to see if the tires spin straight?? I wonder if that was done professionally. Don't look half bad. Too bad you weren't closer and could use my old axle and hubs modified before installation.

Experiment and explore that GY6 transmission. I'm curious to know if it can be adapted in a way to work with something else. ALSO, if you are in SNOWMOBILE country, search out and see if any of those components would work. They have awesome clutch systems. Very nice engine set up! I would like to do a go kart using a snowmobile engine just for kicks at least once Here we only have water cooled Jet Ski vehicles..... Snowmobiles for water

420cc
The engine runs beautifully. Unmodified stock Predator 420cc engine with 6 months left on the factory warranty. He said the engine was barely used after putting it on, which makes sense, because it was tearing up belts. I found on the chain it says 428h

GY6 Tansmission
I love the idea of adapting the GY6 transmission! That could be my best route. If it worked before, the gear ratios should work on any engine!(if it can be installed). I don't fully understand how it could've gotten the needed ratios...some transmission magikery going on lol. Swap the transmissions on these engines. That and replace the axle.

Wobbly Tire
There's some issue with the passenger rear tire. It still wobbles. Not sure if it wasn't welded properly or has other issues.

Down South
I now live near Waycross, GA, but originally I lived in Michigan most my life. I'll be heading there next month for my sister's wedding. I dreamed of doing a 4 wheeler with a snowmobile engine. Those things can be crazy.

Moving the Sprocket
I've thought about not being able to move the sprocket, but I came to the conclusion I don't need to. As long as it fits I can mount a second sprocket on it and put it anywhere I want

Spacers
I am very happy it came with the 2" spacers on all 4 tires.

Jackshaft
I like the idea of using the 42t sprocket on the axle. Smaller size means better clearance (less chance of sprocket damage). If the jackshaft can fit in with my other 42t sprocket, I could have another sprocket between 20t (for a final ratio of 7.35:1) to maybe 17t (final ratio of 8.6:1). This is assuming I'm understanding jackshaft ratios correctly.

It'll be tricky fitting the jackshaft in for sure, but I think there is enough clearance. The left arm of the old engine mount that sticks out the back could be used as part of the bracing for welding the stand for the jackshaft. I tried to draw on the picture to show what I mean (yellow is for the sprockets and orange is for the chains). I included the other pictures for anyone to look at to see if there are any other ideas for jackshaft placement.