Predator 212 wont fully start

B

BrownStainRacing

Well-known member
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
1,482
Stock length. You havnt done any milling off the head or block. Might as well get a new matching guide plate too.

No, not surprising outta a predator.

Again, crap mixed bag of parts. If you wanna build a good strong motor, that will last, you have to start with a better platform, that has better parts to begin with.
LtDansNewLegs said:
Welp, after only taking the engine out once, the stock push rods are already bent a little… I’m no expert, but am a bit surprised they’re bent after only reaching a 38MPH top speed.
Do you guys recommend a specific length for chromoly push rods on a stage 3 212?
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
L

LtDansNewLegs

Member
Messages
44
Reaction score
44
BrownStainRacing said:
Take it off, and post pics. That cam is gonna need ALL the stall (rpm engagement) you can give it.
Click to expand...
I’ve taken the clutch cover off or whatever it’s called, to lube the ring, but still didn’t have any identification on it. From what I could feel when I took the kart out, their was no issue with the clutch disengaging.
 
L

LtDansNewLegs

Member
Messages
44
Reaction score
44
BrownStainRacing said:
Stock length. You havnt done any milling off the head or block. Might as well get a new matching guide plate too.

No, not surprising outta a predator.

Again, crap mixed bag of parts. If you wanna build a good strong motor, that will last, you have to start with a better platform, that has better parts to begin with.
Click to expand...
Nope - I didn’t mill the head. I’ll get a new guide plate like you recommended.

What do you mean in regards to a better platform. Are you talking about a better engine block in general? I’m stuck with what I have for now due to the investment I’ve already made. I’m obviously working on getting the engine more reliable and higher performing, if those two could ever go together lol. All the parts I’ve bought so far, I’ve done a good amount of research on to make sure they’re good, but as you know, I’m still new to small engines and learning as I go.
I appreciate everyone’s help thus far!
 
B

BrownStainRacing

Well-known member
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
1,482
I'm not talking about that.
If you can't stall the clutch high enough, it will never let that cam get up in rpm, where it needs to be. Stock stall, 2200 rpm will not work.

My son's ducar 212 has 3600 rpm stall, it needs 4500. But that's WAY TOO MUCH for a mini bike on trails.

Here pic of 3600 rpm engagment. We started at 2800 and creeped up 200-300 at a time. The lower stall was less power to the tires, less spinning, and took more time to get up on that cam. On the hard road, it took forever to get in upper rpm with the less stall springs.
 

Attachments

  • 20230408_173908.jpg
    20230408_173908.jpg
    3.9 MB · Views: 4
L

LtDansNewLegs

Member
Messages
44
Reaction score
44
BrownStainRacing said:
Take it off, and post pics. That cam is gonna need ALL the stall (rpm engagement) you can give it.
Click to expand...
Pics as requested. Not sure how to break it down any further, but let me know if you can tell what clutch it is. Thanks.
 

Attachments

  • 2B33235A-7323-4708-B0E1-50B861F62F87.jpeg
    2B33235A-7323-4708-B0E1-50B861F62F87.jpeg
    2.9 MB · Views: 6
  • 3437AF4D-93D4-4EB1-97AE-47D1F63D8534.jpeg
    3437AF4D-93D4-4EB1-97AE-47D1F63D8534.jpeg
    3.2 MB · Views: 6
B

BrownStainRacing

Well-known member
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
1,482
LtDansNewLegs said:
Pics as requested. Not sure how to break it down any further, but let me know if you can tell what clutch it is. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Some cheap max torq knock off. Can you see any color on the spring at the ends where it connects together?? I'd say it jus 2200 rpm. People don't like to change these types of springs. They are a TOTAL PITA.

The black spring for these type clutches is 3000 rpm engagement, I cannot change it by my self. I hope you can. I havnt messed with clutches in yrs, and the black spring was the highest rpm stall you could get outta these type. Maybe they make better now, Idk.

But stock 2200, WILL NOT WORK FOR YOUR BUILD. that cam jus will not make power at that low rpm.
 
B

BrownStainRacing

Well-known member
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
1,482
LtDansNewLegs said:
Nope - I didn’t mill the head. I’ll get a new guide plate like you recommended.

What do you mean in regards to a better platform. Are you talking about a better engine block in general? I’m stuck with what I have for now due to the investment I’ve already made. I’m obviously working on getting the engine more reliable and higher performing, if those two could ever go together lol. All the parts I’ve bought so far, I’ve done a good amount of research on to make sure they’re good, but as you know, I’m still new to small engines and learning as I go.
I appreciate everyone’s help thus far!
Click to expand...
That wasn't anything negative to you. You learning and are going in the right direction.

That was more a reference to why I dont buy the pred 212 any more.

There's jus alot better platforms to start with, without the bs parts, and tolerances the preds use.

I mean c'mon, it's a $99 engine......not a honda in disguise, 😆 🤣 😂
 
B

BrownStainRacing

Well-known member
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
1,482
@LtDansNewLegs
You might wanna hold off on ordering parts for now.

Stop and think about it a min or 2.

What about the pushrods in the old 212???

What I'm thinking, is the new stock cam with old stock springs for breaking in the new cam, for a few hrs, keeping the rpm under 5500. Then adding the 22lb springs. That stock cam anit no joke, it will out pull that super stock cam til around 5000 rpm, then theres no comparison. The stock cam can easily pull to 5700-5900, it's jus don't have the power as the super stock cam.

The stock pred cams are still lazy slow ramped cams, but work much better with a CR bump, better carb, exhaust, and a lil port work to the head, Iike you have done.

OR......you could jus get a better clutch and be done with it, 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆
 
L

LtDansNewLegs

Member
Messages
44
Reaction score
44
Yeah, def misunderstood you LOL
And I thought I was getting a good deal with the $20 coupon, just to see it was $99 this weekend for their spring Black Friday! Jokes on me 🤣
No coloring on the clutch springs, but I feel like diagnosing the clutch is easier than the engine so I’m putting that to the side for now.

I just got to inside the crankcase and every looks solid.
 
L

LtDansNewLegs

Member
Messages
44
Reaction score
44
BrownStainRacing said:
@LtDansNewLegs
You might wanna hold off on ordering parts for now.

Stop and think about it a min or 2.

What about the pushrods in the old 212???

What I'm thinking, is the new stock cam with old stock springs for breaking in the new cam, for a few hrs, keeping the rpm under 5500. Then adding the 22lb springs. That stock cam anit no joke, it will out pull that super stock cam til around 5000 rpm, then theres no comparison. The stock cam can easily pull to 5700-5900, it's jus don't have the power as the super stock cam.

The stock pred cams are still lazy slow ramped cams, but work much better with a CR bump, better carb, exhaust, and a lil port work to the head, Iike you have done.

OR......you could jus get a better clutch and be done with it, 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆
Click to expand...
The old push rods are stock too, so if my setup bent the new stock rods, then they would just bend the old ones.
I think I read on another thread here in DIY that it was somewhat pointless to break in an engine stock, then break it in again with the mods.
I’m confused on breaking in the cam. Is having a stronger clutch tied to breaking in a cam? I would think they’re independent of each other, if it’s just breaking in a new engine.
 
B

BrownStainRacing

Well-known member
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
1,482
LtDansNewLegs said:
Yeah, def misunderstood you LOL
And I thought I was getting a good deal with the $20 coupon, just to see it was $99 this weekend for their spring Black Friday! Jokes on me 🤣
No coloring on the clutch springs, but I feel like diagnosing the clutch is easier than the engine so I’m putting that to the side for now.

I just got to inside the crankcase and every looks solid.
Click to expand...
Here's a perfect example.

My pred 224, I knew I was gonna build it better then stock.

I knew it came with a 58mm crank, ducar block which is stronger, has better support and more ribs in the right spots then the regular pred 212 blocks, and a better head.

Tore it down and measured clearances, set them, put it back together.

Put on pvl flywheel, set timing to 26, and bumped CR to 9.3:1 with jus a head gasket change, changed main jet to a .031". Set governor to 4800 rpm. Broke it in on the test stand for 3 or 4 days. Rode it, beat it, cruised it, ran the snot outta it for 2 months. Then tore it back down and built it.

The ONLY parts that are left that are stock is
Block
Bearing and seal on flywheel side
Head
Valve guides
Valve seats
Rocker studs, pivot nuts and lock nuts.

Kind of a short list uh??

That's how much I have learned about the pred parts. I jus don't trust em any more when it comes to making them more then what they are designed for.

I'll still trade for them, work on em, put em together for people. Add a head gasket, main jet, flywheel, rod, header, set timing, valve springs, but that's it. They ain't worth a cam change, well not to me anyway.
 
Last edited:
B

BrownStainRacing

Well-known member
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
1,482
LtDansNewLegs said:
The old push rods are stock too, so if my setup bent the new stock rods, then they would just bend the old ones.
I think I read on another thread here in DIY that it was somewhat pointless to break in an engine stock, then break it in again with the mods.
I’m confused on breaking in the cam. Is having a stronger clutch tied to breaking in a cam? I would think they’re independent of each other, if it’s just breaking in a new engine.
Click to expand...
I was thinking you could use them with the stock cam. The stock cam is not as hard on the valve train as the super stock cam is. It doesn't need stronger push rods and valves springs, like the other cam does. Dont worry about that, jus stick with your plan.

I like to break in a cam with weaker springs. $50 cams are not harden, it's very easy to wipe out the exhaust lobe with heavy springs on a non harden cam.

I only use isky racing cams. They are not $50 cams. They put a spanking on all those pos, slow lazy ramped cams.

A clutch has nothing to do with breaking in a cam.
 
L

LtDansNewLegs

Member
Messages
44
Reaction score
44
Ah, I see what you’re saying now. Not a bad idea. I def don’t want to start wearing down the new cam from the get go. Maybe I’ll give that a shot. My original thought process was to put everything in up front, so I can “set it and forget it”, and do as minimal upgrades in the future. I’ll keep you posted. Thanks!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top