New guy trying to tweak a cheap Kart with my sons

[SUBMAWEINER]

Hello My name is Aaron. Im here to learn some skills from group to get my kart operational and have some fun with it. I have always wanted a Go-Kart or little buggy to mess around in and now even more so for my kids to enjoy and learn.

I just purchased a Kart/buggy from a friend in hopes of getting it running and having a fun neighborhood kart for our family. I purchased a used Trail master XRX buggy for $100 yesterday and will be asking for a lot of tips, advice and recommendations to try to get this thing running and working again. It has been sitting for a few months on his property after the engine was rev'd and ran in low gear by a neighborhood kid and possibly fried the engine (smoked and leaked a bunch of oil). Im still in the visual inspection phase and trying to learn as much as possible before asking questions. Looks to be in good shape for $100. Im excited to start this new hobby! Here are a few pics...

 

[Budget GoKart]

You might have thrown a rod if that's so there will be a hole in the side of the engine. Then you need a new engine. If you have a welder or someone you know with a welder then you can swap it for a predator 212 it will be easy to use and fix but only be pull start of you want it to be able to pull its self along you need a torque converter which ebay has you covered. Just search 30 series 3/4 inch torque converter with the desired tooth count on the jackshaft

 

[950speed]

Nice username.

 

[SUBMAWEINER]

You might have thrown a rod if that's so there will be a hole in the side of the engine. Then you need a new engine. If you have a welder or someone you know with a welder then you can swap it for a predator 212 it will be easy to use and fix but only be pull start of you want it to be able to pull its self along you need a torque converter which ebay has you covered. Just search 30 series 3/4 inch torque converter with the desired tooth count on the jackshaft

I appreciate the information! I’m excited to get into this project.

I’m very interested in converting to a Predator 212 based on cost and modifications available. The pull start does not bother me since my boys are 5 and 9 and I’d prefer to be the one to always controls the use of it with some supervision until a little older.

I have several friends that weld and would be able to assist. What Specifically do you recommend I’d need to order and what websites are recommended?

 

[Budget GoKart]

If your willing to spend the extra money you could buy a 420cc predator from harbor freight and a 40 series torque converter on ebay it will be stronger and able to pull its self it's a little bigger though

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

Ebay saves money because a 40 series on gopowersports.com is quite a bit of money or a 30 series is too. But on ebay both can be bought for 50$

---------- Post added at 10:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

Just remember 420cc engine usually has a 1 inch output shaft while a 212 cc engine has a 3/4th shaft and you should be able to buy an engine plate on gopowersports.com. I will link all parts needed for a 212 and 420

 

[SUBMAWEINER]

I appreciate the information! I’m excited to get into this project.

I’m very interested in converting to a Predator 212 based on cost and modifications available. The pull start does not bother me since my boys are 5 and 9 and I’d prefer to be the one to always controls the use of it with some supervision until a little older.

I have several friends that weld and would be able to assist. What Specifically do you recommend I’d need to order and what websites are recommended?

This is the engine setup I have and the original engine removed. Again looking to swap a predator 212 for cost, upgradability and power unless there is a benefit in keeping the original engines and try to rebuild them. Here are the pics of what I have, the previous owner said the motor already removed was ceased and the other installed is not operating due to over heating with major oil leakage following. Here are a few pics of what I’m working with.

 

[SUBMAWEINER]

If your willing to spend the extra money you could buy a 420cc predator from harbor freight and a 40 series torque converter on ebay it will be stronger and able to pull its self it's a little bigger though

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

Ebay saves money because a 40 series on gopowersports.com is quite a bit of money or a 30 series is too. But on ebay both can be bought for 50$

---------- Post added at 10:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

Just remember 420cc engine usually has a 1 inch output shaft while a 212 cc engine has a 3/4th shaft and you should be able to buy an engine plate on gopowersports.com. I will link all parts needed for a 212 and 420

Awesome, thank you for the help. As far as cost I’m not too concerned based on how cheap I bought the kart for. I Just want it to be fun to drive for me and the kids. My 9 year old will be doing most the work as a learning project with me. He’s helped me with my classic cars and is very interested in his own project.

 

[Budget GoKart]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeremywell...pingMethodExpress!46268!US!-1&redirect=mobile that's the best torque converter I found and engine plate
https://www.gopowersports.com/predator-engine-mount-212cc-301cc/

For a predator 212 with a cupon they are 99$ at harbor freight. and you need a sprocket that is interchangeable with the one on your axel that fits 420 chain. which gopowersports.com sells prestreched chain. Or you can get cheap chain from tractor supply if you have one near by. (I'm not a gearing expert but I think you have 420chain already but the sprocket is a little small)

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

I highly doubt you have a hole in your block from a thrown rod.
If you did, I think you would notice it, and the engine would not turn over at all.
Could be something as simple as a failed crankcase vent or oil seal, no need to instantly assume it's a thrown rod.

Submaweiner(love that name!), go to YouTube and look up Carsandcameras Pugly. They did a (well not a Predator, it was a Subaru OHC) "Predator" swap on their mini buggy very similar to yours. That will give you a little idea of what it would take to swap a Predator on there.
FYI some people around here will call that thing a mini buggy since it has suspension, but you can call it a kart, it doesn't matter.

 

[Budget GoKart]

After I saw pictures I saw that too but 110cc engines are not the best when it comes to reliability from what I've heard and seen but someone help with gearing because I can't

 

[SUBMAWEINER]

Thanks for the info, I will check out the video. I've Been trying to learn as much as possible over the last day or so. I appreciate all of the information and agree, I have not had a chance to really investigate the current status of my installed engine. I'm charging the battery now and will hopefully can do a good evaluation and Troubleshoot this afternoon. The Predator seems more appealing to me due to power and upgrade options as worst case scenario.

I know my habits will to be make it faster due to all of my car experience (Subaru STI fully upgraded with bigger turbo, Plymouth Duster with 440, 55 Chevy truck with super charger). I'm just trying to avoid spending extra money trying to go bigger/faster, hence the massive amounts of questions I'm asking to try to do it right! Thanks for all the help so far everyone.

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

Oooooo, 440 Duster! Cool!
Do you have welding/fabrication skills? If so, a Predator swap should be pretty simple.
But yes, Those 110cc engines and similar are notoriously unreliable, a Predator is a good choice.
They're about equivalent to a modern mild Chevy LS V8, they're just kind of everywhere.

 

[itsid]

Do not swap to a Predator, I'd say!

Predator 212 $100
TaVKit $60
new rear sprocket $20 (yes you must have a larger sprocket for the 212!)
FnR Gearbox (to keep reverse) $220

makes 400 bucks without mods

the engine you have is as reliable as a predator (both chinese engines)
it's a Lifan if I'm seeing this correctly.. a 1P52FMH (6.2kW compared to predators <5kW)
I'm estimating they make about four times as many engines a year as rato does
(ratos are what HF sells relabelled as predator)
in all flavours and sizes (even a more popular true clone of the industrial engine)

it takes a bit more maintenance since it has a more power and internals (gears mostly)
it also has electric power (lights) which you cannot have on a predator easily
(a ducar 212 perhaps.. a predator 212 still comes without lighting coils!)

And most of all
you would need to redo all the motor mounting and alignment to even install an industrial engine on a scooter-engine kart
so a ton of work.

No.. swapping to a predator is not as good of an idea IMHO
And frankly the lack of performance compared to the engine you have....
you'll also want some mods (another 150 bucks or so down the drain)

So.. question now is:
550 bucks and a lot of work
or 250 for a new 110cc and no noteworthy work
to have the same result in performance.
or 350 for it's bigger 140cc brother with some additional oomph and no noteworthy amount of work.

Fix the engine you have for 120 dollars or less (or buy it new for 250 )
or step up to a 140cc variant (Loncin makes a 140cc IIRC.. still the same engine really)
a bit more expensive though (350 I think)
[EDIT]
Oh Lifan makes one too (8kW).. even one at almost 150cc... (9kW)
http://www.lifanth.com/en/products-...ontal-engine/98-1p55fmj-2e101p56fmj-2e10.html

'sid

PS if the cylinder/piston is gone you can install a 125cc or 140cc big bore kit to your engine and gain a slightly wider grin for close to zero additional costs (compared to the 110cc cylinder/piston combo) so it might be within the "fix"

 

[SUBMAWEINER]

Do not swap to a Predator, I'd say!

Predator 212 $100
TaVKit $60
new rear sprocket $20 (yes you must have a larger sprocket for the 212!)
FnR Gearbox (to keep reverse) $220

makes 400 bucks without mods

the engine you have is as reliable as a predator (both chinese engines)
it's a Lifan if I'm seeing this correctly.. a 1P52FMH (6.2kW compared to predators <5kW)
I'm estimating they make about four times as many engines a year as rato does
(ratos are what HF sells relabelled as predator)
in all flavours and sizes (even a more popular true clone of the industrial engine)

it takes a bit more maintenance since it has a more power and internals (gears mostly)
it also has electric power (lights) which you cannot have on a predator easily
(a ducar 212 perhaps.. a predator 212 still comes without lighting coils!)

And most of all
you would need to redo all the motor mounting and alignment to even install an industrial engine on a scooter-engine kart
so a ton of work.

No.. swapping to a predator is not as good of an idea IMHO
And frankly the lack of performance compared to the engine you have....
you'll also want some mods (another 150 bucks or so down the drain)

So.. question now is:
550 bucks and a lot of work
or 250 for a new 110cc and no noteworthy work
to have the same result in performance.
or 350 for it's bigger 140cc brother with some additional oomph and no noteworthy amount of work.

Fix the engine you have for 120 dollars or less (or buy it new for 250 )
or step up to a 140cc variant (Loncin makes a 140cc IIRC.. still the same engine really)
a bit more expensive though (350 I think)
[EDIT]
Oh Lifan makes one too (8kW).. even one at almost 150cc... (9kW)
http://www.lifanth.com/en/products-...ontal-engine/98-1p55fmj-2e101p56fmj-2e10.html

'sid

PS if the cylinder/piston is gone you can install a 125cc or 140cc big bore kit to your engine and gain a slightly wider grin for close to zero additional costs (compared to the 110cc cylinder/piston combo) so it might be within the "fix"

Thanks for the inputs, as mentioned before... I’m still in the discussion point right now in regards to fixing vs swapping. I appreciate your experience and knowledge in regards to rebuilding vs realistic costs of swapping and modifying. I’m charging the battery now and plan to see what I have right and maybe removing the engine to evaluate the engine. Are there any threads on here for disassembly and inspection for these types of engines?

I’m Going into this knowing I’ll probably be dumping some cash into this and I’m ok with that, I just want to get peoples opinions on what works and make it fun vice just fix it, then want more power later and end up dumping even more money into this project. Just looking at options and cost. Thanks for the insight.

 

[itsid]

Most important question you should ask yourself is:
do you want reverse and lights
since that is what makes the most difference in terms of costs and convenience.

Unfortunately we don't have many threads with engines like those
even info on the gy6 is scarse when it comes to "engine internals"

The problem is, those are not as well documented from the factory.. it's close to impossible to find a service/repair manual for them.

Since they all are based on Honda engines, you might be able to find the Honda manual
and extrapolate from there.

yours is based on the engine of a Honda Dax (CT70 ... AB23 or so.. can't recall what the modelnumber was for the larger combustion volume model atm)
Skyteam sells a 125cc replica (skyteam is Jiangsu Sacin Motorcycle Co)
maybe you can find those manuals as well.
engine style is still identical.

That and the simple fact that they're cheap to replace (zongshen, lifan, loncin etc... they all have such engines as well as hundreds of chinese mfgs have too)
some people just replace them instead of fixing them.

I think that's why JT falsely assumed they're of especially bad quality.
(which frankly might even be true for some fishy two man chinese workshop engines.. certainly not for the listed chinese brands above )

If you find the exact model number on your engine (it'll be engraved somewhere)
we can determine the exact model and with that might be able to find you the documentation you'll need.

'sid

 

[Budget GoKart]

Yea enignes

 

[SUBMAWEINER]

Most important question you should ask yourself is:
do you want reverse and lights
since that is what makes the most difference in terms of costs and convenience.

Unfortunately we don't have many threads with engines like those
even info on the gy6 is scarse when it comes to "engine internals"

The problem is, those are not as well documented from the factory.. it's close to impossible to find a service/repair manual for them.

Since they all are based on Honda engines, you might be able to find the Honda manual
and extrapolate from there.

yours is based on the engine of a Honda Dax (CT70 ... AB23 or so.. can't recall what the modelnumber was for the larger combustion volume model atm)
Skyteam sells a 125cc replica (skyteam is Jiangsu Sacin Motorcycle Co)
maybe you can find those manuals as well.
engine style is still identical.

That and the simple fact that they're cheap to replace (zongshen, lifan, loncin etc... they all have such engines as well as hundreds of chinese mfgs have too)
some people just replace them instead of fixing them.

I think that's why JT falsely assumed they're of especially bad quality.
(which frankly might even be true for some fishy two man chinese workshop engines.. certainly not for the listed chinese brands above )

If you find the exact model number on your engine (it'll be engraved somewhere)
we can determine the exact model and with that might be able to find you the documentation you'll need.

'sid

I took a few pics of the one on my bench but the installed engine doesn’t have any placards or numbers that I can see. The motor installed looks very similar but has no markings visible.

The Lights do not matter to me, was thinking about just rigging LEDS or using battery operated independent lights (zip tied etc) if needed and reverse isn’t too important to me.

Here are some pics.

 

[itsid]

an import sticker can be almost worse..
IF that company imported engines from different manufacturers and smeared their label over all of them..
the ebvmetall family number isn't telling either.. so yeah

The close to completely gone black sticker on the installed engine however might still carry some information..
any sequence of numbers or letters you can extract from that might help


Now here's a generic ATV with a 110cc engine
partly covering engine service:
https://www.familygokarts.com/pdf/manuals/crossrunner/110/service_manual.pdf

so you have something to look at for now
(there are also 110cc videos on yt... IDK if some are actually worth while; haven't watched any yet.. one's labelled "110cc Chinese motor tear down" maybe that's a good start )

In any case, it's worth checking what you got and seeing if it can be revived
relatively cheap

I'd see if it has a sufficient amount of oil in,
check the spark and compression and then try to fire it up
allow it to idle (not allow it to run) and see if there's somoke or noise anywhere..
and where it's leaking if it still is..
just to get a solid baseline of what to look for.

I had some trouble opening the partsmanual for your kart (and engine)
So I attached a fixed (for me) version of it here..
nice exploded depictions of your engine (still no torque specs I'm afraid)
just in case...

'sid

 

[snowjob]

The Kawasaki KLX110 has used a variant of that engine (I think) for a very long time. It predates the Honda and even most of the clone usage AFAIK. If you do a bit of research for the KLX110 motor and even hop-ups, I bet you will find a ton of info. For years, they were the only mini/pit bike and had a huge following. It was when Honda and the clones realized this near monopoly that they jumped in afterword.

 

[Texan]

Your engine number will be located here: