Need help with engine , sprocket ,clutch

[Mike10gs]

I'm sure unless I'm going blind. It all comes out together. It was bolted then welded. The sprocket that is. The whole wheel hub comes off but it's the sprocket is welded

 

[bob58o]

I don't know what is going on with those hubs.

If I was set on using that brake kit, I'd be looking into a live axle swap.

Or if wanting to keep the cog belt setup, then the brake disc can go on a jackshaft.

Clutch on crankshaft connected by chain to sprocket on jackshaft.
Brake disc (with hub) also on jackshaft.
Then another cog pulley thing on the right side of the jack shaft aligned with the pulley on the passenger side rear wheel.


These bolt looking things don't hold anything?

 

[gr8hairy1]

....I would just need to put on a belt clutch correct and put it to the sprocket just like I would with chain right. Or is it a total different thing....

If you're going to use the sprockets it has now, you'll first need to know what type of chain they use.

Different chain has different tensile strength ratings. Depends on the power of the go kart plus the weight. Also, some sprockets are harder to find than others depending on the chain type needed. Depending on tooth count or material it's made out of (steel/aluminum).

Whatever clutch you use, it needs to be able to have a sprocket that uses the same type of chain as the axle sprocket(I refer to it as axle sprocket because most go karts have a fixed axle with one sprocket. I know your setup is a little different with each tire having it's own sprocket. None the less, it's the same idea). Over time, sprockets do wear out. At some point you'll likely need to replace the hub/sprockets you have now because the sprockets will have worn out and it's welded together.

If it's a weird chain type/tooth count and you decide to choose a different chain type axle sprocket when you replace it, you'll have to also replace the chain and clutch sprocket. In a perfect world, when your axle sprocket needs to be replaced, so will your clutch sprocket and chain, but that'll rarely happen.

Plus, changing the sprocket on the clutch may be different enough that things will need to be realigned (axle sprocket to the clutch sprocket/torque converter driver pulley to the driven pulley).

That brings up which clutch to use. Centrifugal clutch or torque converter(T/C). Each has it's pros and cons. It just depends on what you want out of the kart and how you want it to drive. It's be best to watch some YouTube videos that compare and contrast the 2 to help you make a decision.
In general, a T/C will go from the engine shaft (driver pulley) to a jackshaft (with driven pulley). Those are connected by a belt. Then a chain goes from the jackshaft sprocket to the axle sprocket with a chain.

A centrifugal clutch attaches to the engine shaft and is connected to the axle sprocket with a chain.

T/C's are popular for helping increase acceleration, but centrifugal clutches are more efficient and are commonly used on race go karts.

Watch some videos and read http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18371
You'll have a much better idea after that.

Edit: as bob85o pointed out, a jackshaft will be needed no matter what route you go. Without a jackshaft the engine can only power one tire. T/C or centrifugal clutch will need a jackshaft. You may already know this, and I'm sure other people seen this as obvious, but somehow I completely missed including that point in this post.

 

[bob58o]

How about a clutch on the crankshaft going to a sprocket on a jackshaft (connect by chain).

Then a cog belt pulley on EACH end of the jackshaft with a cog belt driving each rear wheel.
You can put a hub and the brake rotor also on the jackshaft.

Synchronized dual powered rear wheels without a live axle or differential. It'd be different.

 

[gr8hairy1]

...An option might also be to ditch that brake rotor and weld a sprocket to the pulley.
Might be able to mount the caliper in a way where the sprocket is used as the brake rotor...

I had to read a times to (I think) get what you were saying. I think you sometimes forget how much you know bob58o lol.

Are you saying to use a sprocket that would get used exactly like a brake rotor? That the caliper would be large enough to go over the sprocket? Why not just weld a brake rotor instead? What about the sprocket teeth?

---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 AM ----------

How about a clutch on the crankshaft going to a sprocket on a jackshaft (connect by chain).

Then a cog belt pulley on EACH end of the jackshaft with a cog belt driving each rear wheel.
You can put a hub and the brake rotor also on the jackshaft.

Synchronized dual powered rear wheels without a live axle or differential. It'd be different.

That I definitely understand. Plus genius idea about mounting the brakes on the jackshaft! When I get around to rebuilding the rear end on my buggy, that's what I will want to do. One less thing to be damaged from driving over something that fits between the tires.

I didn't realize the sprockets on this go kart were belt driven. I just thought they were some weird chain thing I hadn't seen before.

I imagine a jackshaft is a necessity to be able to drive them. No cog pully (sprocket) like that would reasonably fit on a clutch, much less drive both tires.

 

[bob58o]

I had to read a times to (I think) get what you were saying. I think you sometimes forget how much you know bob58o lol.

Are you saying to use a sprocket that would get used exactly like a brake rotor? That the caliper would be large enough to go over the sprocket? Why not just weld a brake rotor instead? What about the sprocket teeth?

I've edited my post.
I don't know much and my ideas come and go and my fingers type and don't care if the words makes sense. LOL

I was trying to point out that it is not a live axle and if only powering one wheel, the brake also has to be on that wheel.

On a minibike, you can have a sprocket on one side of the rear wheel and a rotor on the other side because the frame of the minibike is on both sides of the wheel.

On a one wheel peel kart, if the sprocket goes on the inside of the hub, where does the brake disc go? How do you mount a caliper?

I was thinking something like this, but don't know how it'd work with a hydraulic caliper/pad set up.

Sure you could weld a rotor to the pulley, if it has a large bore to fit around the hub thing that I cannot figure out. But looking at it, it seems you'd need a two piece sprocket or rotor welded on and I don't know how I feel about that.

 

[gr8hairy1]

Gotcha. That's a pretty sweet sprocket/brake rotor.

I see what you mean about making your own setup for a go kart, because the frame is only on one side of each tire. Maybe if the sprocket and rotor have the same bolt home pattern and you put a small spacer between them. Then they can both be on the same hub without any hackery.

My dream is to get a mini bike this year. I want it for off roading with my buggy. Having the sprocket and rotor on one side would make the other side less likely to get messed up. Navigating big ruts would be less worrisome. You could pick the side that has no sprocket or rotor to be the side that might potentially slide down the side of the rut.

 

[bob58o]

The one thing about putting the brake on the jackshaft is that if your chain goes (or in this case - your belts) so do your brakes. Just like a band brake around the clutch. If the chain goes, no more brakes.

 

[Mike10gs]

I don't know what is going on with those hubs.

If I was set on using that brake kit, I'd be looking into a live axle swap.

Or if wanting to keep the cog belt setup, then the brake disc can go on a jackshaft.

Clutch on crankshaft connected by chain to sprocket on jackshaft.
Brake disc (with hub) also on jackshaft.
Then another cog pulley thing on the right side of the jack shaft aligned with the pulley on the passenger side rear wheel.


These bolt looking things don't hold anything?

Since I'm new to messing with go karts all of this is like What? I definatel y have to go watch some videos to understand these parts more. But seems like everyone has some good ideas. I'm just trying to figure out if I can use the set up it has or should I just get rid of it. I did think about live axle it would be much easier but to put it on is another thing.

---------- Post added at 07:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 AM ----------

If you're going to use the sprockets it has now, you'll first need to know what type of chain they use.

Different chain has different tensile strength ratings. Depends on the power of the go kart plus the weight. Also, some sprockets are harder to find than others depending on the chain type needed. Depending on tooth count or material it's made out of (steel/aluminum).

Whatever clutch you use, it needs to be able to have a sprocket that uses the same type of chain as the axle sprocket(I refer to it as axle sprocket because most go karts have a fixed axle with one sprocket. I know your setup is a little different with each tire having it's own sprocket. None the less, it's the same idea). Over time, sprockets do wear out. At some point you'll likely need to replace the hub/sprockets you have now because the sprockets will have worn out and it's welded together.

If it's a weird chain type/tooth count and you decide to choose a different chain type axle sprocket when you replace it, you'll have to also replace the chain and clutch sprocket. In a perfect world, when your axle sprocket needs to be replaced, so will your clutch sprocket and chain, but that'll rarely happen.

Plus, changing the sprocket on the clutch may be different enough that things will need to be realigned (axle sprocket to the clutch sprocket/torque converter driver pulley to the driven pulley).

That brings up which clutch to use. Centrifugal clutch or torque converter(T/C). Each has it's pros and cons. It just depends on what you want out of the kart and how you want it to drive. It's be best to watch some YouTube videos that compare and contrast the 2 to help you make a decision.
In general, a T/C will go from the engine shaft (driver pulley) to a jackshaft (with driven pulley). Those are connected by a belt. Then a chain goes from the jackshaft sprocket to the axle sprocket with a chain.

A centrifugal clutch attaches to the engine shaft and is connected to the axle sprocket with a chain.

T/C's are popular for helping increase acceleration, but centrifugal clutches are more efficient and are commonly used on race go karts.

Watch some videos and read http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18371
You'll have a much better idea after that.

Edit: as bob85o pointed out, a jackshaft will be needed no matter what route you go. Without a jackshaft the engine can only power one tire. T/C or centrifugal clutch will need a jackshaft. You may already know this, and I'm sure other people seen this as obvious, but somehow I completely missed including that point in this post.

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me. I know time is not given back so thank you really.
Now that is alot of info. Just got to work and read through it quickly. I'll have to really sit down and do some research to understand everything better. Lol
I will definately be watching some videos. But in order to have both tires go I would need a jackshaft. I was hoping to go with centrifugal clutch. At this point i want to go with what's cheaper. Although I know this is not cheap at all lol

---------- Post added at 07:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 AM ----------

How about a clutch on the crankshaft going to a sprocket on a jackshaft (connect by chain).

Then a cog belt pulley on EACH end of the jackshaft with a cog belt driving each rear wheel.
You can put a hub and the brake rotor also on the jackshaft.

Synchronized dual powered rear wheels without a live axle or differential. It'd be different.

This actually makes a little sense to me. Lol I will have to watch some videos or look at some pictures to get a better idea. But would be nice to make both tires go and not just one. Didn't think I could without the live axle.

---------- Post added at 07:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 AM ----------

I've edited my post.
I don't know much and my ideas come and go and my fingers type and don't care if the words makes sense. LOL

I was trying to point out that it is not a live axle and if only powering one wheel, the brake also has to be on that wheel.

On a minibike, you can have a sprocket on one side of the rear wheel and a rotor on the other side because the frame of the minibike is on both sides of the wheel.

On a one wheel peel kart, if the sprocket goes on the inside of the hub, where does the brake disc go? How do you mount a caliper?

I was thinking something like this, but don't know how it'd work with a hydraulic caliper/pad set up.

Sure you could weld a rotor to the pulley, if it has a large bore to fit around the hub thing that I cannot figure out. But looking at it, it seems you'd need a two piece sprocket or rotor welded on and I don't know how I feel about that.

Yea I was looking at it yesterday and thought the same thing. Where would I out the disc brake if it's a one wheel peel. You got me there. This is why I'm here to ask you guys lol
First sentence had me cracking up lol
The way you explained on last message seems like it might be the way.

---------- Post added at 07:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ----------

The one thing about putting the brake on the jackshaft is that if your chain goes (or in this case - your belts) so do your brakes. Just like a band brake around the clutch. If the chain goes, no more brakes.

So my brakes will go if my belt comes off. I feel like this is going to be a pain when I finally get the parts. It's giving me headaches now just trying to figure out how to do it.

---------- Post added at 07:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 AM ----------

Also the bolts you asked if they are holding anything. On the opposite side they are welded. I will take closer pictures so you guys can see what they did.

 

[mckutzy]

Honestly if that's how they are... Cut the heads and/or nuts off and drift out..
The belt drive will be a pain to find the right fitting belt, and still you'll need a jackshaft, so to eliminate that(as that is also a factor in the ratio equation) it makes life easier to buy on set of sprockets to fit..

Use the belt pulley to pattern the blank sprocket bolt holes...

 

[gr8hairy1]

I see what you're saying. Cut the heads off and leave the bolts welded on like lug nuts.

 

[mckutzy]

Actually take them out...
If they are welded onto the flange, you might be able to drill them out and replace with new hardware.. I would..
Wouldn't really want heat weakened bolts now holding your new setup... Would ya???

 

[gr8hairy1]

That makes sense. Or....drill them out big enough and put in lug nuts. Though for me, I'd just go with new hubs at that point. I don't like worrying about keeping things concentric trying to avoid wobble. Just like this little car lol

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------

.... I was hoping to go with centrifugal clutch. At this point i want to go with what's cheaper....

It can be toss-up as to which one is cheaper. Plus you have to keep in mind quality. Don't compare a high-quality centrifugal clutch to a low-quality torque converter, and visa versa.

Clutches wear out like belts wear out, but clutches are more expensive than belts. Although, if this kart is more for going fast and staying fast, a centrifugal clutch can easily last a long time (think big oval track), plus it'll give more efficient power to the wheels.

Lot's of slowing down and speeding up can quickly wear out a centrifugal clutch (lots of sharp curves, trail riding, or in general going slow). A torque converter is much better at acceleration and won't wear out as quickly as a centrifugal clutch from constant accelerations. A few clucthes will quickly be more expensive than a torque converter.

 

[Mike10gs]

That makes sense. Or....drill them out big enough and put in lug nuts. Though for me, I'd just go with new hubs at that point. I don't like worrying about keeping things concentric trying to avoid wobble. Just like this little car lol

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------



It can be toss-up as to which one is cheaper. Plus you have to keep in mind quality. Don't compare a high-quality centrifugal clutch to a low-quality torque converter, and visa versa.

Clutches wear out like belts wear out, but clutches are more expensive than belts. Although, if this kart is more for going fast and staying fast, a centrifugal clutch can easily last a long time (think big oval track), plus it'll give more efficient power to the wheels.

Lot's of slowing down and speeding up can quickly wear out a centrifugal clutch (lots of sharp curves, trail riding, or in general going slow). A torque converter is much better at acceleration and won't wear out as quickly as a centrifugal clutch from constant accelerations. A few clucthes will quickly be more expensive than a torque converter.

As much as I would like this to only be on road. It won't. It will see more trails. Not extremely bumpy but some. A torque converter will help with this?

 

[gr8hairy1]

As much as I would like this to only be on road. It won't. It will see more trails. Not extremely bumpy but some. A torque converter will help with this?

Indeed. Centrifugal clutches take a little bit to fully engage. During that time it is rubbing on the inside and causing friction. Once the tires get moving enough then it is fully engaged and there is very little if any rubbing. The issue is if you are regularly falling below the rpm speed needed for full engagement, there can be a lot of wear on the clutch and cause it to prematurely burn out. Though, that will be determined on how it is driven. Some trails are mostly straight and you maintain higher speeds.

If you are riding on trails where you regularly slow down, have hills where you start going up them slowly, or even worse, if you have to stop and then start on an incline, it can very very quickly ruin a centrifugal clutch.

Torque converters have belts, and by definition, there is some wear when you first accelerate. But due to the nature of torque converters you are starting off in a much much lower ratio so usually the belt will engage much more quickly. With that said, both centrifugal clutches and torque converters can be adjusted, which can give control over full engagement, but I am talking about similar setups between the two.

Neither torque converters nor centrifugal clutches are designed for slow crawling speeds. But a torque converter will handle constant slow-downs and speed-ups with less wear than a similar quality centrifugal clutch.

 

[Mike10gs]

Got it, thanks.
So I was thinking. If I find a hub just like the one i have now, I can put a axle sprocket I need for cent clutch correct. Now since I do not have much room for disc brake. I saw a video where someone put a band brake on the clutch. Would this work. Or should I just put a brake drum with the axle sprocket?

---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------

I think the wheel hub that It has is a trailer wheel hub. Then they welded the rest I will post pictures.

---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------

So I am wondering if this is the same hub as that and if it is, could I just make it the same way with different axle sprocket

 

[Mike10gs]

Here is the picture of how it is now and the hub that I think is the same one. I measured it's a 1" axle

 

[Mike10gs]

This is what is has

 

[mckutzy]

Is the pulley aluminum?

It looks like the bolts are just welded to the hub to allow it to be driven... just take off the pulley, find a good size sprocket match with old pulley and drill new holes... mount it...

 

[Mike10gs]

I never really got to messing with it,I got home early and I was able to take off the one it has on. Unscrewed and hammered it off. You can see where they welded. Can I just find the axle sprocket for this and somehow screw it on? If the holes of axle sprocket I get don't match can I just pre drill the holes I need.

So I have 17" tires that I roughly measured but the actual tire itself sais 18x8.50-8.
Someone mentioned 6:1 ratio. How many teeth do I get 10t clutch or 12t?
Thanks in advance