Motorized wheelbarrow

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fredk

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That wheelchair motor looks good for purpose.

Check out brushed vs brushless motors.
Brushless are more involved.

ESC (Electronic Speed Controllers) are built for one or the other. Check eBay and find one for your voltage and max current, plus 50% if possible.


Over all, an older style Brushed motor is much easier to get up and running I would think in this application/skill level.
I'm about the same with my project for a motorized Mechanics Creeper, but am looking at a mid-size motorcycle starter with an ESC. Its already geared low, and hopefully with the ESC I can get away with its 40 Amp max if I keep speed below 50%.

I hope to have most/all parts in the next several weeks and will do some testing, unless you need to jump now.
 

itsid

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Thanks for the quick reply.

The problem I'm facing is lack of experience and confidence. Your description made it sound potentially more complicated, in ways that I am not familiar with. If you tell me electric motor, with an extra axle in between to gear it down... I understand how all that works and why I'm doing it. With this wheelchair one, I guess it's as you say:

I have a rough idea what brushed means, but not why it impacts which controller I need. I don't have any idea what PM means or how big of a problem it would be. If it requires a different controller, I don't know how it needs to be different, or how easy to acquire the necessary controller would be.
Not that I don't believe you, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how you came up with 75amps. I cant seem to find any details on the thing except for "24v".

I suppose to sum up, my plan had been to find an appropriate motor, controller, and battery set up, run it by you guys to make sure it all checks out, and then buy it all at once. That way I have reason to believe its going to work, without unexpected changes in purchase plan, and total price.

That being said, you don't seem overly concerned about the potential hurdles, so I guess they typically aren't too hard to overcome.

Am I correct in saying the controller you linked doesn't seem to do regenerative braking?

Thanks again for your help.

Well, it's never as easy as we want it to be (but close most of the times ;))
but it's also never as difficult as we're afraid it could turn out to be either :D

Motors are same same just different,
PM means permanent magnet (literally just Magnets inside) as opposed to
"serial wound" (which is a stator coil to induce the magnetic field when power is applied, just as the coil on the rotor.. just 'not moving')
The controller for that is the same in nearly all cases

It's not for brushed and brushless motors though!

I'll skip the brushless details (since that's an unlikely scenario here anyways)
let's just say it has one more powerlead (at least) that needs to be taken care of ;)

Now.. no.. the controller I linked you to has no regenerative braking capabilities..
this one has:
http://kellycontroller.com/pm36101100a24-36vwith-regen-p-542.html
(notice the price difference :()

the 75Amps are taken of some other forum where they talked about a similar (or rather identical) transaxle and someone went ahead and measured the currentflow...
No, I cannot find any specsheets either (likely because it's heavily relabeled by the MobScooterMfg ;))
But since it IS a mobility scooters transaxle I know it's intended to haul human bodies around..
so it should have enough power in any case ;)

And you are right, I am not overly concerned of course.
First it's not my money you are going to spend, so I'm not risking much... ;)
but most importantly, because I have seen so many electric motors, controllers and batteries by now, that I don't get too nervous when I see a new one.

Especially mobility scooter transaxles are 'easy' since the absolute worst thing that could happen is, that you need to find the original controller
(which might take a week longer maybe cost 20 bucks more but is very well possible :D)

Personally, I'd rather go step by step, since as it turned out, it's hard to find everything that's needed in one shop anyways, and if you need to shop around
(and cannot save shipping fees for that matter) why take chances?

get a part, see what it needs to work properly and make your decisions based on that newly gained knowledge.
(personal taste.. not advice ;))

But let's get back to the motor transaxle in question as an example:
Maybe the guy in the other forum was indeed wrong.
With the motor in my hands I can tell you it's current draw
(a voltage divider is quickly made, internal resistance thus quickly measured and current draw easily calculated)
No more doubts.. since the controller should be "oversized" by a decent amount anyways
I'd live with any measuring error and so would the motor and controller.
it cannot be too big, and "too small" can be prevented rather easily ;)

'sid
 

Callipygous

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If I told you it was going to cost about 30 bucks in shipping would you still call it one of the better options? That is, do you think its competitive in the 70 dollar range, considering places like amazon that often offer free shipping?
 

itsid

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It's not on me to make that decision.

A good rule of thumb for internetshopping is this:
when in doubt, leave it out!

For me personally, that's a no brainer, I'd have that at home the day I've seen it.
No hassle with sprockets, chains or gearing in general, axle or wheel bearings, no need to make sure chain/belt tension is kept solid and adjustable, motor mount and axle are perfectly parallel etc.. and what space all of that takes when not in such nifty compact package or how to protect it from debris in the woods

Me -in your shoes- not knowing what it is, where it came from etc... I wouldn't think a second thought about it and moved on, not knowing what's inside the transaxle really means flying blind.

Sorry, this is not the definite answer you wanted to hear I guess...
but again, this decision is not mine to make,
and if you do not feel comfortable with such transaxle, don't.

take a good look around for motors and what have you, take some notes (price part, shipping on that part) etc.
give yourself a week... and if you find chain/sprockets/axle/motor/bearings for cheaper than 100 bucks combined maybe that's the way you would want to proceed.
if you hit a 120-130 dollar total... maybe you want to revisit the transaxle idea. *shrugs*

'sid
 

Callipygous

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Yep. Lookin for advice from someone experienced, not definite answers. Right now I have been having a really easy time finding controllers that seem like better, cheaper options, with regen, and motors that seem like they would work for around the same price (though without the stuff I would need to gear them down). Problem is almost all the controllers I have found are for brushless motors, and almost all the motors I can find with the right power and price point are brushed.
It seems like switching to a brushless motor bumps the price up to about 150, and I haven't managed to find a brushed controller with regen (except the one you posted for like 160) Its looking more and more like transaxle time.
 

itsid

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uhoh.. I might be mistaking but that sounds like you're looking at the RC shelf
(remote controlled cars, boats and planes)

NO! this is advice then: STAY AWAY FROM ANY OF THOSE!
the few that'd work are extremely expensive, what's affordable will never work for your usage scenario!

just saying.
Look for EV motors specifically!
(Voltage stricly multiples of 6V! never a cellcount [like 6s or 8s or alike])

'sid
 

Callipygous

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Mostly electric scooter motors and ebike controllers actually. Ive mostly been looking at 36v, as that seems to be where they start to frequently hit 700w, but ive also been looking at 24 and 48v. Pm electric motors seem to be easy to find at somewhat reasonable prices. Ebike controllers, at 36v 1000 watt, are easy to find, but they are all brushless. Ebike motors are often brushless, but start at like $160.
 

itsid

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Ah alright then..
yes most my10XX series motors can be had for very reasonable prices (my1016, my1020 and basically everything that's made by UNITE motors)
the matching controllers cost pennies only (yinyun or something.. rarely ever seen one above 50 bucks most can be had for 20 or less)

Good stuff! (well worth the money that is :D)
Still, make a list a properly maintained thorough list.
you'll be amazed how small stuff adds up (especially with shipping and such);)

'sid
 

Callipygous

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I decided to go for it and ordered the transaxle. Then I got to thinking about power... if this thing is 75amps, 24v, what kind of batteries do I need to get any real life out of it? 2 sets of 12v to get the voltage, whats a largish battery, like 7ah? So if I double that up too thats 4 batteries and at full throttle it would run for 14/75 of an hour, so about 11 minutes?
 

itsid

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nope nono..

The motor on average will not even draw 50%!
Think again.. this is a mob scooter motor... HUMAN HAULER..
no commercial mobility scooter carries dozens of batteries to not die after ten minutes ;)
(and that's with 200+ lbs of load)

Most mob scooters run between 10 to 15 miles
(yes unfortunately they list distance not time)
most batpacks are around 20'ish AH for all I know.
and yes 24V...
if you buy 12V batteries each must have said 20AH capacatiy to make one 24V 20AH batpack

personally since you have enough space, I'd go for 40AH sealed lead acid
then again some mobscooter batteries are much cheaper than car batteries ...
shop around, but since you'll be carrying some serious load up some inclination, rather buy a bigger batpack than a smaller one, just to be safe.
something like this set for example:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BUH0TAS?psc=1

(we know better, once you have the motor at home and tested)

And on a side note: stay away from esc like the ones fred linked to.. those are for static appliances, not vehicles and while there is no major differences, that one minor difference will make them a crappy replacement for what you need ;)

'sid
 

fredk

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nope nono..

The motor on average will not even draw 50%!
Think again.. this is a mob scooter motor... HUMAN HAULER..
no commercial mobility scooter carries dozens of batteries to not die after ten minutes ;)
(and that's with 200+ lbs of load)

And on a side note: stay away from esc like the ones fred linked to.. those are for static appliances, not vehicles and while there is no major differences, that one minor difference will make them a crappy replacement for what you need ;)

'sid

Yeah, I'll defer to your experience here. I was only going by the stats 75a @24v. However, its probably geared down already right?

Also, whats the problem with the ESC's from eBay? I thought quite a few people are using them, they're PWM right?
What should I be looking for in an ESC for a low speed people/junk mover? Is there a major efficiency or cost benefit?
 

itsid

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Yeah, I'll defer to your experience here. I was only going by the stats 75a @24v. However, its probably geared down already right?

Also, whats the problem with the ESC's from eBay? I thought quite a few people are using them, they're PWM right?
What should I be looking for in an ESC for a low speed people/junk mover? Is there a major efficiency or cost benefit?

And that's indeed perfectly legit.. I do the exact same thing to know the absolute minimum runtime you'll get.
(in fact it's a bit less since you cannot empty a battery completely without destroying it ;))

The thing is, for motorized vehicles it's nearly impossible to get a "good" value for mileage, depends on just too many things.
(load, terrain, abuse and even things like humidity and temperature)

The good thing about mobility scooter parts here is that you can make a better guess by the original documentation (which we do not have here so far)
but a full size mob scooter on average has a 40AH batpack and runs for 15 or so miles.
And that should get us much closer to the real world values IMHO than the "flat out powerdraw" ;)

Now.. speed controllers.
Nasty little things ;)
They're indeed all the same really, a few caps, some lines of code, some timers and an array of MosFets..
a "whatever" input and some corresponding output on the other side.

it's all details, very minor things really (toggle rate of the MosFETS, quality of the Caps, rate of the timer chip etc..)
yinyun for example (EV controllers for the popular My10xx series motors and used in nearly every electric kick scooter on this planet)
basically use the exact same cheap stuff that 90% of the ESC used I saw when I followed your link.
They work for a while, but they fail every now and then without proper cooling or if abused a bit too hard.
they at least come in cases (basically a big heat sink)
which the home appliance ESCs lack and you really need, not only for heat dissipation but also to keep as much dust dirt and moisture out as possible.
So you'd spend another 10 bucks just for a proper case if you go with those.
Also most I was presented following that link had a 120V input, which of course ruled them out immediately ;)

As soon as you see a turn dial, it's a set and forget speed, which is perfect to adjust fanspeed, a conveyor belt system or whatever it is that needs to run at a certain speed for an extended period of time.
But EVs do not do that you want fast and good throttle response,
which -again- MIGHT work with these.. but chances are it feels laggy.

Okay for a wheelbarrow that's likely not as important as it'd be for a kart or minibike..
but then you need to browse through all of those,
filter for input voltage, check the details and try to find the switching rate etc...
just to find the handfull of ESCs that might work well enough and will not be as expensive as the ones actually made for the task at hand ;)

'sid
 

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I would listen to Sid, he knows. :thumbsup:

A possible low cost option is to look for used electric scooters in your area.

I have found them many times for around $40-$50.

Usually they only need fresh batteries

but, I have come across a few that just had a melted/fried wire and even one just a melted fuse holder.

The main thing is that it's a complete package to learn from and work with.

You get everything from the throttle, to the wiring, to the speed controller, to the motor and the battery pack too.

Here is a couple of go karts I built for my kids using these type of parts.

Free bonus: switches, wheels, lights etc. :2guns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ6bcBy1O1M&t=5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTRA1FXz9Lw&t=4s
 

Callipygous

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My transaxle has arrived.
It has two sets of wires coming out of it. 2 yellow and 2 black that seem to control the brake, and a black and a red that seem to go to the motor. My understanding is that I measure the resistance between the red and black wires and combined with the voltage, I can get amps and therefore watts.
My multimeter is claiming 2.5 ohms, so 24v/2.5o=9.6amps
9.6x24v=230.4 watts

Does that all seem to check out?


edit:
oh boy. I just went to check the numbers again... though it was sitting pretty stable at 2.5, its now settling at 1.1, which seems calculate to more like 520 watts. I don't know if the wires are sketchy and I moved them into a better position, or if I'm doing something wrong.
 

itsid

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the lowest resistance is what you want to measure..
brushed motors sometimes have a tendency to build up grime on the commutator,

if you have one of those car starter packs, tap the motor wiring a few times with the starter battery, just so the motor can make some revolutions and hopefully "brushes" away most of the dirt
measure again.. I'd expect less than 1 Ohm tbh
more like 0.6 or something (if that guy on the other forum was correct.. it'd be 0.32 even)

Anyways, 500Watts is a very decent number, it's surely enough to move a serious load at slow speeds and it doesn't draw too much energy from a batpack either..
again that's good...
then again, more is more ;)

So run the motor over for a few seconds, and measure again
if the multimeter zeroes out, make a voltage divider.

Anyways.. the good thing, if that motor stays below 30 Amps, you can have a really cheap controller for it (w/o regen braking I'm afraid) but a kickscooter controller would do and they're usually only around 20 bucks.
hard to beat that ;)

'sid
 

Callipygous

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I have this thing:


Designed to jump your battery without the benefit of another car. Is that what you were talking about? my multimeter claims it puts out about 11.5 volts.


Ran it a few seconds, down to .9ohms. Might look into an open it up and dust it out option.
 
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