Motorized wheelbarrow

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Callipygous

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The brake operates on 24v (it says so on the sticker), which is handy, cause thats what the motor is running on. But I think pulling it off the wires for the motor leaves me without variable braking again. Ie. Motor on=brake off. Going down hill, motor totally off=brake totally on. I can use the disengage lever for when i want to push the thing without resistance, but I wouldn't have a way to apply *some* brakes when I get to a downhill.

As for strength, It is on the motor side of the gearing setup, so it does have tremendous mechanical advantage. I doubt I would need anything very strong.

I'd be fine with most of the options you've mentioned, but I don't really know how to start looking into them. It seems like drum brakes are sold "for the [insert model name]" rather than by specs like axle diameter (3/8") or how far it protrudes (1/2"). also, the shaft is smooth, not threaded. The nut is held in place with a set screw. Will I be able to attach many other braking systems to a smooth shaft?
 

itsid

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IDK if that's a correct assumption you made there,
but that depends on specs of the brake..
I think you might be able to get a 24V rectifier (semi truck rectifier for it's alternator)
that way no matter if you push the throttle or have the motor act as a generator
(passively coasting downhill) the brake will always see a correctly aligned voltage signal.

But chances are the brake itself isn't actually voltage regualted at all,
in whcih case you really can just switch it on or off
(and it's self regulating according to the forces applied)

IDK what specs and force characteristics your brake has.
Could you post a pic of the label perhaps, maybe we can google it's exact specs
(that'd help alot!)

AS I said a mechanical setup (bicycle, not kart) should be fairly similar in size,
but your drum size will be needed to find out if say a Sachs is a better match than a Sturmey Archer drum brake or whatever.

And you will likely have to modify such bike brake no matter which one you'll pick.
(cutting off parts, drilling holes.. maybe even rewelding a new lever...

But first let's just see if we can make the one you got work;
and only if we cannot, it's time to rethink and maybe swapping to a mechanical setup IMHO.

24V signal is nice, it can be taken directly off the batpack when necessary;
and if it's a variable brake can be regulated with some electronical or electromechanical filtering (PWM or just a Potentiometer)
that is actuated by a brake lever on the handle for your convenience.
Not too big of an issue really...
-well- as long as we know what final voltage/amperage we have to meet to make the brake work to your satisfaction.

But we need to know exactly what we're dealing with first.

'sid
 

Callipygous

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I was unable to find specs, though I did find the "literature" for the line of brakes here: http://www.warnerelectric.com/products/brake-products/power-off-brakes/wr-series-brakes/wr198-brakes

I am not sure what you mean by "drum size", according to everything I have managed to find, the current brake doesn't have a drum. Descriptions of electromagnetic brakes seem like they are very close to disk brakes. In the case of always-on brakes like this one, springs hold a brake pad against the disk, and when activated, electromagnets compress the springs and pull the pad away.

The shaft poking out the back of the motor is 3/8" across, and smooth. It sticks out 1/2". The nut that is currently on it is 3/4", and the diameter of the motor casing is about 3 1/4". I have very little room beyond that before the axle casing would interfere, maybe an additional 1/8"

Let me know if any other information would be useful.
 

Bbqjoe

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Nice pics.
I don't know from this,... but I did learn a little bit about you from running your fingerprints through a database or two.:D
 

itsid

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I am not sure what you mean by "drum size", according to everything I have managed to find, the current brake doesn't have a drum. Descriptions of electromagnetic brakes seem like they are very close to disk brakes. In the case of always-on brakes like this one, springs hold a brake pad against the disk, and when activated, electromagnets compress the springs and pull the pad away.

The shaft poking out the back of the motor is 3/8" across, and smooth. It sticks out 1/2". The nut that is currently on it is 3/4", and the diameter of the motor casing is about 3 1/4". I have very little room beyond that before the axle casing would interfere, maybe an additional 1/8"

Let me know if any other information would be useful.

So it's indeed just on off..
by "drum size" I was refering to a mechanical drum brake which could/should? replace the electric brake you have
(it's can size is likely the limit for the drum size you're able to install)

And frankly, I think you lost me on that numberama;

Am I right to assume that the brake is attached to the rear motor shaft?
Why do you think the nut size is important?
(is the brake acting on the nut instead of the shaft???)

Okay, but I get the important number I was looking for
(3.25" diameter can)
Now.. BHP would be nice to know as well
(I assume the collar on the brake is how you attach it to the motor casing?!)

Anyways Sturmey Archer as well as Sachs drum brakes (bicycle) are 70mm in diameter
[thus smaller than the 82.5mm motor casing] so they should fit in that direction...
can height (width) for such brake is ~18mm (assume an inch to have some error margin ;))
[just saying so I don't have to look it up again once that becomes necessary to know :D]

'sid
 

Callipygous

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Am I right to assume that the brake is attached to the rear motor shaft?
yes
Why do you think the nut size is important?
(is the brake acting on the nut instead of the shaft???)
I doubt it is important, but you are on the other side of the earth, so responses are typically 1 per day. I wanted to give you any info that *might* be helpful. And yes, the brake acts on the nut. There is a (i think plastic) disk inside of it with a hex shaped hole in the middle. When you flip the lever, that disk no longer moves.

Okay, but I get the important number I was looking for
(3.25" diameter can)
Now.. BHP would be nice to know as well
(I assume the collar on the brake is how you attach it to the motor casing?!)
bhp= brake horse power? I thought that referred to engine output, before losses due to friction in the drive train. The sticker says the brake is good for 4 newtonmeters. In the picture you can see the flange I'm holding has holes around the perimeter. Those are how it screws to the motor case.
 

Callipygous

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I have news! Some good, some... less good.



So the thing is built. It has brakes. One of which is for stopping when you want, and works great. The other is a safety for stopping the thing if you let go. It works less great. I need to introduce another spring or something to give it more oomph. It seems to be good on power. I loaded it up with some bricks and gravel I had on hand, I'm estimating 150-200 lbs worth, and it had no trouble at all hauling it up my driveway. Seemed like it could probably keep up a jogging pace with that kind of load.

That's about the end of the good news. The bad news is I made some design mistakes, and the setup has some inherent flaws.

Design mistake number 1: Setting the wheels so they are much closer to centered under the load than on a traditional wheel barrow. Felt like a good idea at the time, considering the kind of load I wanted to haul, and the distance I wanted to haul it. Seemed like it would add a little bit of balancing challenge, but put much less of the weight on the operator.

Design mistake number 2: As you may be able to tell in the picture, it is noticeably taller than your average wheel barrow. This is because I wanted it to clear the batteries, figuring out exactly how long those legs should be to clear the batteries was complicated, and I thought it better to err on the side of slightly too tall. Seems like I landed on much too tall. I have something like 6 inches I could stand to lose before it would risk hitting the batteries, and I think I am going to be cutting legs and rewelding them to get rid of most of that excess.

Design flaws 1 and 2 combine to create a very awkward situation when encountering obstacles. The thing is very keen to keep moving when the wheels stop, and with the height, and the wheels being further back, most of the tip prevention comes down to the driver. Not an easy thing with the kind of weight were dealing with.

This is where the inherent flaw comes in to make things even more fun. Transaxle sounded like a lovely idea, but for my specific circumstances, I am now interested in ways of disabling it. If I hit a root, pothole, bump, whatever, with one tire but not the other (very likely with this trail) the motor has no problem at all with letting that wheel stop, and just sending the power to the other wheel instead. This causes the thing to turn toward the stopped wheel. The weight in the barrow obviously wants to keep moving straight. Since I designed the thing to pivot from side to side, to deal with awkward terrain, I now have a few hundred lbs trying to keep going straight while the wheels go sideways, and the structure in between provides no resistance to it doing just that.

So these three problems mean that when I went to put it away in my garage and hit a 2x4 with the left wheel, it turned sideways, pitched forward, and tried to roll over to the right pretty much all at the same time. I'm perfectly happy dealing with the design issues, its really just labor, nothing much to figure out. The one I would like advice on is the transaxle. Is it plausible to open it up and lock some parts together to get it to act like a solid axle?

Oh, there was also a weird electrical thing it was doing. I turned it on the first time and it functioned just like I would expect. I went inside, came back out and the motor wouldn't kick on. I messed with it for a bit, checking voltage on the batteries, finding no problem, eventually I unplugged it and plugged it back in and it worked again. After screwing around with it for a while it seems fairly consistent. After turning it on, then letting it sit for a minute, it wont work until power is disconnected and reconnected. Hitting the on/off switch doesn't do it, it only starts working if you disconnect the power entirely.
 

itsid

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yeah a design flawed frame... that much I agree upon.

locking the transaxle permanently will be your next mistake I'm afraid though.

here's why:
a live axle will turn both wheels at the same speed no matter what!
that means it will go straight.. (PERIOD!)
no turnuing under load, that thing just won't let you when it's loaded.
(empty perhaps ;))
Karts have four wheels, two of which are fighting against that tendency to go straight more or less effectively;
race akrts even twist to lift one of the rear wheels intentionally to make tight turns possible.

your wheelbarrow only has two wheels, and cannot lift one of it to help sou steer.
A live axle will simply not do corners.

Now, I understand that hitting a rock log or pothole is an issue;
and you might need to find a way to lock the diff temporarily indeed (I doubt that tbh)
but locking it permanently will be a huge mistake.

Now, fix your geometry issues first (height and axle position)
and take care of stability issues too (i.e. add crossbracing to prevent the frame from twisting.)

Then and ONLY THEN judge the pothole log-hitting differential issue again.
I bet since the intertia will try to project the wheelbarrow straight,
99% of all times the wheels will just skip over the obstacle without any issues.

And for the remaining obstacles.. just cheat ;)
(i.e. put some stress on the faster turning wheel like stopping it with your foot or putting something in front of it as well..)
Ideally you have seeperate wheel brakes and can use them to steer (putting additional load on one wheel individually)

You might have a wiring issue, or you're overheating the controller..
I can't tell from here I'm afraid.
But check your wiring with the diagram provided by the controller mfg.
when it does so, see if the controller got hot (touch it and judge 'by hand')

'sid
 
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