Lifan 6.5HP 196cc Engine Build (1st Timer)

[BattBoy175]

I am hoping to find some help in planning out 196cc engine build. Its my first time dealing with engine internals and appreciate any advice! If any additional photos or info is needed just let me know.

History: Got a new "Sport Cart" from gokartsusa website. https://gokartsusa.com/Sport-kart-6.5hp-Off-Road-Go-Kart.aspx
Lifan 6.5HP (196cc?) engine with clutch. Kart is 175lbs, rider is up to 200lbs.
Not enough torque from the factory to turn around in taller grass. It seems that I need more power and/or a torque converter in order to have any fun with the kart on my property. I am in the process of breaking down the engine and adding upgrades. This build is a summer project for my son and I so I want to make sure I'm not ordering the wrong parts or risking spontaneous engine disassembly while driving!

I have:
-real/Japanese VM22 carb
-cone air filter
-"10k" cast aluminum flywheel (Amazon/generic)
-exhaust header
-will be completely removing the governor
-13" tires
-48T sprocket/gear (on the axle)
-420 chain

I plan to get:
-22lb valve springs
-billet rod (ARC 6270 stock length 3.303 currently considered)
-possibly a flat top piston (68mm .570 currently considered)
-torque converter (type/size?)

What I'm really not sure about is what length rod and whether or not the flat top piston is a good idea. I'm very confused on how to determine if I will create interference between the piston and the valves or something similar. Obviously I don't want clearance issues but I'm not sure where to start on researching that. I'm not even certain that a Lifan 6.5HP engine is really a GX200 clone and will use the same internals. So I'm left with a few questions:

1) Will installing a flat top piston be ok in this engine?
2) Is a longer rod a good idea or can they not be used with a flat top piston?
3) Is there a specific torque converter style/model that would be ideal for my purposes? I was thinking I would try the cheap $50-60 Amazon version "30 Series".
4) Gearing/Sprocket: Do you think I will need to change the 48T on the axle in order to get the torque/power I'm looking for, even with a 30 Series TC installed?
5) Can anyone confirm that my Lifan engine is a GX200 clone or rather would a GX200 rod/piston work in this engine?
6) Is there any reason for me to look for higher performance rockers or stronger valves? Any reason why I should not wait to install them? I'd rather add them later (due to budgeting) assuming they are needed due to the additional power from mods listed above.

 

[BrownStainRacing]

I am hoping to find some help in planning out 196cc engine build. Its my first time dealing with engine internals and appreciate any advice! If any additional photos or info is needed just let me know.
View attachment 138498
History: Got a new "Sport Cart" from gokartsusa website. https://gokartsusa.com/Sport-kart-6.5hp-Off-Road-Go-Kart.aspx
Lifan 6.5HP (196cc?) engine with clutch. Kart is 175lbs, rider is up to 200lbs.
Not enough torque from the factory to turn around in taller grass. It seems that I need more power and/or a torque converter in order to have any fun with the kart on my property. I am in the process of breaking down the engine and adding upgrades. This build is a summer project for my son and I so I want to make sure I'm not ordering the wrong parts or risking spontaneous engine disassembly while driving!

I have:
-real/Japanese VM22 carb
-cone air filter
-"10k" cast aluminum flywheel (Amazon/generic)
-exhaust header
-will be completely removing the governor
-13" tires
-48T sprocket/gear (on the axle)
-420 chain

I plan to get:
-22lb valve springs
-billet rod (ARC 6270 stock length 3.303 currently considered)
-possibly a flat top piston (68mm .570 currently considered)
-torque converter (type/size?)

What I'm really not sure about is what length rod and whether or not the flat top piston is a good idea. I'm very confused on how to determine if I will create interference between the piston and the valves or something similar. Obviously I don't want clearance issues but I'm not sure where to start on researching that. I'm not even certain that a Lifan 6.5HP engine is really a GX200 clone and will use the same internals. So I'm left with a few questions:

1) Will installing a flat top piston be ok in this engine?
2) Is a longer rod a good idea or can they not be used with a flat top piston?
3) Is there a specific torque converter style/model that would be ideal for my purposes? I was thinking I would try the cheap $50-60 Amazon version "30 Series".
4) Gearing/Sprocket: Do you think I will need to change the 48T on the axle in order to get the torque/power I'm looking for, even with a 30 Series TC installed?
5) Can anyone confirm that my Lifan engine is a GX200 clone or rather would a GX200 rod/piston work in this engine?
6) Is there any reason for me to look for higher performance rockers or stronger valves? Any reason why I should not wait to install them? I'd rather add them later (due to budgeting) assuming they are needed due to the additional power from mods listed above.

Before you get too far ahead of yourself, and cant go back. Pull that chain/sprocket cover off and let's see if a 30 series will be bolt on or need something else.

Get pics of clutch, chain, tire and axle sprocket area.

 

[Dingocat]

With that tire size and current mods, should have enough torque. Gearing or clutch issue?

 

[Bansil]

I agree, should be plenty of engine as it sits

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

This is from the website.

 

[BattBoy175]

Before you get too far ahead of yourself, and cant go back. Pull that chain/sprocket cover off and let's see if a 30 series will be bolt on or need something else.

Get pics of clutch, chain, tire and axle sprocket area.

The kart did well on a crushed gravel driveway and mowed grass but when turning sharply (U-turn) at the end of the driveway it would encounter taller grass and not have the power to continue. The 80lb driver had to get out and manually lift/turn it around. Then it powered back up the driveway fine. I should mention at that time the only mods were an exhaust header and intake filter. No VM-22, flywheel, etc.

I then installed the VM-22 but had starting issues. I'm 99% sure it was from bad gas. Didn't have time to mess with it for a year and I failed to drain the tank before storage! Once I realized the gas tank was full of varnish I figured we'd try to rebuild and upgrade as a project. As you can see in the pics we are about ready to pull the engine and begin the process. Figured I should ask for advice and/or confirmation from the kart pros here before I start ordering the internals. I've been reading through the forums for awhile but still don't know enough to be confident ordering the parts and just slapping them in. I can wrench and use calipers, etc. but I've never done internals or much carb-related work. I'd like this kart to be a bit more offroad capable than it was stock. I figured that meant more RPM which meant governor removal which meant a rod was needed. And If I'm already inside the engine then I'd like to get as much done as possible (within budget) in one go. I could be way off base but that was my thought process. And FWIW, I've soaked/cleaned the gas tank with alchohol and will be cleaning the carb and replacing the fuel hoses and filter.

 

[BattBoy175]

And I really wouldn't mind if it were a bit faster which is why I was thinking internals (speed/RPM) as well as the TC (offroad). But I'm new to karts, aside from driving a couple farm-made ones back in the 80's.

 

[Bansil]

Really surprised it has that mush trouble

I make it a habit to always cover intake/exhaust ports so stuff doesn't fall into them (I realize you plan on tearing it down, just a good habit to get used to)

 

[BattBoy175]

With that tire size and current mods, should have enough torque. Gearing or clutch issue?

I'm now more familiar with what kills a clutch or rather their preference to full throttle. I guess it is possible that the driver was trying to baby the throttle while stuck. But when I was driving (220lbs or so) it did feel like it could use "more". The gear ratio stuff I haven't researched enough yet. I'm not even sure what my ratio is. I'm trying to figure all of that out before I get too deep into things. One for usability and two to make sure any TC or clutch I get will work well with the power being made. Its just above my head for now lol

 

[Denny]

Put a TAV II 30 series kit on it and don’t look back!

 

[BrownStainRacing]

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The kart did well on a crushed gravel driveway and mowed grass but when turning sharply (U-turn) at the end of the driveway it would encounter taller grass and not have the power to continue. The 80lb driver had to get out and manually lift/turn it around. Then it powered back up the driveway fine. I should mention at that time the only mods were an exhaust header and intake filter. No VM-22, flywheel, etc.

I then installed the VM-22 but had starting issues. I'm 99% sure it was from bad gas. Didn't have time to mess with it for a year and I failed to drain the tank before storage! Once I realized the gas tank was full of varnish I figured we'd try to rebuild and upgrade as a project. As you can see in the pics we are about ready to pull the engine and begin the process. Figured I should ask for advice and/or confirmation from the kart pros here before I start ordering the internals. I've been reading through the forums for awhile but still don't know enough to be confident ordering the parts and just slapping them in. I can wrench and use calipers, etc. but I've never done internals or much carb-related work. I'd like this kart to be a bit more offroad capable than it was stock. I figured that meant more RPM which meant governor removal which meant a rod was needed. And If I'm already inside the engine then I'd like to get as much done as possible (within budget) in one go. I could be way off base but that was my thought process. And FWIW, I've soaked/cleaned the gas tank with alchohol and will be cleaning the carb and replacing the fuel hoses and filter.

Wow!!! That is disappointing. With an 80lb rider that thing should be flying. We'll, at least .....30 mph.

These engines are still set up for utility uses, so there's a couple small things that make em work better on karts and mini bikes.

I like the lil 196 clone, it's a very good engine to learn how to set up internals. No block, rod, cam, crank clearance issues. With a billet rod, there might be some cam clearance that needs to be done, nothing a dremal and a few mins wouldn't take care of. Depends on what cam is used.

I havnt ran into a 196 that wasnt a clone, all the parts you mentioned should fit without any issues. Coleman, baja, jing chanj dong, or what ever they are, have used all the honda gx200 internals.

Was the clutch installed inboard, sprocket on the inside or outboard, sprocket on the outside????

This will determine if a t/c would be a bolt on and go, or not.

Have you thought about a bigger cc engine??? I'm not trying to sell you something, jus saying a bigger engine always makes more torque right outta the box, and it uses the same clone parts and takes the same amount of money to build.

Maybe put the 196 on the shelf, not be in a hurry, and learn as you go, get it right the 1st time. Just a thought.

 

[BattBoy175]

Wow!!! That is disappointing. With an 80lb rider that thing should be flying. We'll, at least .....30 mph.

These engines are still set up for utility uses, so there's a couple small things that make em work better on karts and mini bikes.

I like the lil 196 clone, it's a very good engine to learn how to set up internals. No block, rod, cam, crank clearance issues. With a billet rod, there might be some cam clearance that needs to be done, nothing a dremal and a few mins wouldn't take care of. Depends on what cam is used.

I havnt ran into a 196 that wasnt a clone, all the parts you mentioned should fit without any issues. Coleman, baja, jing chanj dong, or what ever they are, have used all the honda gx200 internals.

Was the clutch installed inboard, sprocket on the inside or outboard, sprocket on the outside????

This will determine if a t/c would be a bolt on and go, or not.

Have you thought about a bigger cc engine??? I'm not trying to sell you something, jus saying a bigger engine always makes more torque right outta the box, and it uses the same clone parts and takes the same amount of money to build.

Maybe put the 196 on the shelf, not be in a hurry, and learn as you go, get it right the 1st time. Just a thought.

We probably hit 30mph on the driveway, less on the mowed lawn.

The sprocket is on the outside/tire-side of the clutch. I'll take a look at the kit/video again and see if anything obvious stands out as to why it would not fit.

I have thought about a bigger engine and may do that one day but I need to check specs/dimensions and see what will fit this chassis. I want to mod this 196cc regardless. My son is eager to do it and I think it will make a good project for us. I suspect he'll learn more and get to do work more than he would for an engine swap. I'm seeing $300ish for a 12hp and that's a bit out of our budget for now. If I hadn't already unwrapped the new flywheel I'd pause and rethink the engine size more. If mod parts for a ~12hp are about the same in cost as the 196 then it would be better to start with more displacement. Just cant swing it all at the same time and wife wants us to start this gokart experience/repair/project very soon. Kind of our version of summer camp this year lol

We got the engine off the chassis today. Planning to crack the case once we decide on a rod/piston combo. I think we'll be keeping the stock cam for now due to cost but I'll check the prices just in case we can swing it. Appreciate the advice! If you have more, keep it coming

 

[BrownStainRacing]

We probably hit 30mph on the driveway, less on the mowed lawn.

The sprocket is on the outside/tire-side of the clutch. I'll take a look at the kit/video again and see if anything obvious stands out as to why it would not fit.

I have thought about a bigger engine and may do that one day but I need to check specs/dimensions and see what will fit this chassis. I want to mod this 196cc regardless. My son is eager to do it and I think it will make a good project for us. I suspect he'll learn more and get to do work more than he would for an engine swap. I'm seeing $300ish for a 12hp and that's a bit out of our budget for now. If I hadn't already unwrapped the new flywheel I'd pause and rethink the engine size more. If mod parts for a ~12hp are about the same in cost as the 196 then it would be better to start with more displacement. Just cant swing it all at the same time and wife wants us to start this gokart experience/repair/project very soon. Kind of our version of summer camp this year lol

We got the engine off the chassis today. Planning to crack the case once we decide on a rod/piston combo. I think we'll be keeping the stock cam for now due to cost but I'll check the prices just in case we can swing it. Appreciate the advice! If you have more, keep it coming

Awesome!! Sounds like a solid plan.

The 196 is really simple, and you guys will enjoy building it, .

Check and make sure the crank is 3/4", looks to be. But some 196's had a 5/8", 16mm crankshaft.

Being a smaller cc engine they are very ez to over cam, and loose the low rpm pulling power.
Please don't get hung up on the HIGH RPM HP cam bs. You need torque to move weight off the line.

If you can't get the weight moving outta the hole, then a high rpm hp cam is totally useless, and will never be able to see that high rpm, so it will never see that high hp. You can always use big gearing to get that low rpm pull back, but that's just a "crutch" and will loose mph. We can get into that, when you get that far along.

OK, for a t/c to work for you, with what you have. You need to put the spacers, shims, washers back on the crank, if any.
Put the clutch on inboard, sprocket inside, then measure how far away the clutch sprocket is from the axle sprocket.

This distance, is how far you need to move the engine over to run a t/c with a back plate. If not a back plate t/c, then you need to build a jackshaft set up and not worry about moving the engine over.

There's an adapter plate that will allow, side to side and front to back movement for the engine, to get the sprockets inline for a t/c back plate system to work for you. I'm not sure how far they move side to side. I'll send you links when I get a chance.

I suggest getting the t/c, engine, sprockets, and chain lined up 1st, then start your engine build.
Unless you have a block, crank, and side cover you can mock up to get things straight.

12hp sounds like a big block. That's gonna be alot work to get a big block to fit on that frame.

Clone style small blocks, like you have now, are 120cc - 263cc. The bigger cc, the more torque to tires you will get.

Harbor freights max performance 224cc is around $200, makes big torque down low, a direct bolt on, uses all clone after market parts, and the best bang for the buck , IMHO. Needs a $40 aluminum flywheel, for safety, but all cast iron clone flywheels need to be replaced, imo.

Good luck, have fun, and learn as much as you can.

 

[BrownStainRacing]

@BattBoy175

Here's that adapter. I'm sure there's others out there, I'll let you do the research, and comparisons.

Before taking the 196 completely apart. Pull the head and measure how far down in the cylinder the piston sits at TDC. The side cover has to be bolted on for this.
I place a Allen wrench across the deck above the wrist pin, side to side, and use feelers gauges to find this #. Measure on both sides of the piston, write down both #'s

This is very important!!!!
This will tell you how long a rod you will need, and a measurement you will need for compession ratio (CR) calculation.

CR is the #1 most important measurement, for any build. If it's not important, then there's no reason to rebuild an engine, and any outta the box, tiller motor will fill your needs, .

Engine Swap Kit for Baja DB30, Motovox, Fits Coleman CT100 to 6.5HP Clone

Adjustable Engine Mounting Plate for Predator 212cc Engines. Popular for the Baja Doodlebug DB30 6.5HP, but will work on any Mini Bike, Go-Kart or Trike.

www.ombwarehouse.com

 

[Hellion]

That is a neat choice of kart frame--have always liked the Scooter X go kart and frames like it (there have been many) but hope you didn't pay near that amount as priced on that site.

 

[BattBoy175]

Harbor freights max performance 224cc is around $200, makes big torque down low, a direct bolt on, uses all clone after market parts, and the best bang for the buck , IMHO. Needs a $40 aluminum flywheel, for safety, but all cast iron clone flywheels need to be replaced, imo.

Tons of great info and I will get those measurements before moving forward. I need to figure out what a jackshaft is as I've seen them mentioned but don't think I've actually seen the device/part before.

Assuming the VM22 is still a good fit, the added torque may make the 224cc swap worth it. I assume a Series 30 TC would still work? I'd still plan to do the TC, flywheel, governor delete, and billet rod so I'd like to price out a rod before purchasing the 224cc. And it looks like HF has a 224cc in stock nearby.

Looks like the rod/piston combo may take a bit of research due to the 212 and 224 differences. The ARC website seems to have several notes about clearances specific to the 224. I've been reseaching for a couple hours and am having trouble understanding is how the 196, 212 and 224 share many parts but one makes more HP (and you say torque). What is different internally to allow for the difference in displacement? Is it just rod length? I see that 196cc uses a 68mm piston and both 212 and 224 use a 70mm piston so clearly the 2xx will have more cylinder space than a 196. I see on ARC website that they list rods compatible with 212 and 224 with a note saying "Internal clearancing required on the Predator 224cc engine" so I'm guessing the rods are slightly different. I see a cam that says compatible with 196cc and 212cc OHV Predator but doesn't mention the 224cc.

Before I get too hung up on 224cc internals I'll go get my current crankshaft and clutch-to-gear-offset measurements. Was hoping to avoid a engine relocation plate but will do whatever is necessary for more power. Thanks again!

 

[BattBoy175]

That is a neat choice of kart frame--have always liked the Scooter X go kart and frames like it (there have been many) but hope you didn't pay near that amount as priced on that site.

It was a gift. But I did pick it out based on the frame. Dealing with that website was THE WORST though. Absolute sh!tshow. Probably reported to the BBB. Gave up on getting all the parts I had ordered and went elsewhere for them. Had gotten a smaller engine kart from them too and it was so underpowered that we ended up getting this larger one. It was better but we still feel it needs more power for the terrain we have.

 

[BattBoy175]

I do see that a jackshaft kit costs about the same as the engine relocation plate so I'm leaning toward using a jackshaft. This is because in addition to the 4 engine mounting bolt holes on the bottom, my chassis also has 2 holes running back to front. These 2 "bolt" holes are for what I would call eyelet style bolts. The 2 rear vertical mounting bolts run through those eyelets, through the frame, and then into the engine. I'm not sure if the engine relocation plate would allow for their use or not. I'm not convinced that they are needed either... Just another thing I will need to look into and consider.

 

[BattBoy175]

My crankshaft is 3/4"

For the sprocket to axle gear offset I did the following:
-moved engine as close to tire as possible
-installed clutch spacer on crankshaft
-installed clutch backwards onto crankshaft (sprocket toward engine)
-placed a straight edge along both the sprocket and gear
-measured the space between the straight edges

Including the gear and sprocket thickness I have an offset of 1 1/8". Without the gearing thickness included I think I'd be around 7/8", but I will measure the gears and subtract that from the 1 1/8 later. I don't see any listed adjustment/movement specs for that OMBW engine swap kit "plate". I would think it would work fine but I see it says "this side up" and "front" on it. Any idea why? Seems like it would have more adjustment options if the plate could be flipped upside down or front to back. I'm concerned they only expect the engine to be moved to the right (if seated) while it seems I need to move mine toward the left (if seated). And I'm a bit concerned that moving the engine to the left about an inch will bring the TC drive/crank pulley too close to the tire. I may just have to Amazon a TC and see if it'll fit with the engine moved over in order to get the chain lined up. If not, send it back and likely be stuck with the engine plate.

I also found good 196 vs 212 vs 224cc info in the ARC website blogs. Still not certain what gives a 224 more displacement than a 212 though.

 

[BrownStainRacing]

My crankshaft is 3/4"

For the sprocket to axle gear offset I did the following:
-moved engine as close to tire as possible
-installed clutch spacer on crankshaft
-installed clutch backwards onto crankshaft (sprocket toward engine)
-placed a straight edge along both the sprocket and gear
-measured the space between the straight edges

Including the gear and sprocket thickness I have an offset of 1 1/8". Without the gearing thickness included I think I'd be around 7/8", but I will measure the gears and subtract that from the 1 1/8 later. I don't see any listed adjustment/movement specs for that OMBW engine swap kit "plate". I would think it would work fine but I see it says "this side up" and "front" on it. Any idea why? Seems like it would have more adjustment options if the plate could be flipped upside down or front to back. I'm concerned they only expect the engine to be moved to the right (if seated) while it seems I need to move mine toward the left (if seated). And I'm a bit concerned that moving the engine to the left about an inch will bring the TC drive/crank pulley too close to the tire. I may just have to Amazon a TC and see if it'll fit with the engine moved over in order to get the chain lined up. If not, send it back and likely be stuck with the engine plate.

I also found good 196 vs 212 vs 224cc info in the ARC website blogs. Still not certain what gives a 224 more displacement than a 212 though.

You been busy,

The difference is the stroke of the crankshaft.
196 is 54mm
212 is 55mm
224 is 58mm

The 224 is a stroked 212. Same 70mm bore as the 212, with +3mm stroke. The added stroke, pulls in more air/fuel mixture.

To stroke a 212, that crank is $100 by itself. And there's a good chance a new rod and piston would have to be purchased to get the correct piston to deck height. That would be another $50-$100 added to the cost. As you can see, the 224 would be the better choice.

On my mini bike, I had a stock ducar 212 that the governor was set to 5300 rpm outta the box, with a 20" rear tire and 6.66:1 gear. Worked great to pull my 200# butt around and up these steep logging road trails without lugging the engine down.
When I put the 224 on, governor set to 4800 rpm, it was way to much for the 6.66 gear, I had to drop down to 5.55 gear, to keep the front tire on the ground so I could climb the steep hills.
The end result being, I had more torq to the tire, the same top end speed (42-45 mph) at 500 rpm less.
It has a 4.6:1 gear now, could probably go down to a 4.4 or 4.2 gear and still not loose much ouuta the hole pull. It goes much faster then 45 mph. But it's not stock anymore,


Rpm is NOT the answer to more speed. Neither is governor delete and slide carb, IMHO.

There's no way I can launch this "turd motor" mini bike on a hard pack surface.