Increasing torque on a 2.5HP Briggs and Stratton

aliusa

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Hi,

I've been building go kart using a small 2.5HP B&S for my kids to use in the yards. The engine is enough to move them around but if I ride it on the grass it barely moves.

Currently I have a 5/8 11t clutch #35 and 60t sprocket. Not exactly 6:1 but closest I can get due to the limitations. So id like to know if increasing the torque using a torque converter or a jackshaft kit is an option for my setup and will it help with pushing 170lbs on the grass?

Thanks,
A
 

Smerft85

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I don't know how plentiful used larts are in your area, but maybe consider a second kart for you with more power to it?

If you could post pictures and the tire size it would help out big time, also I'd count the teeth on the clutch again just to be sure, any clutch I've had for #35 chain started with 12 teeth. It does sound like it is geared too high, but 2.5hp isn't a whole lot of oomph either.
 

ol'joe

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I'll ramble on that one, briefly.

Back in the '70's, my kids were going batty one summer for something new to play with, so I gathered some junk together and built them a kart. The only available engine was the briggs 2 1/2 HP but with the 6 to 1 gear reduction box that I sold and repaired in my shop for use on pumps.

The kart had motorcycle wheels fore and aft and wound up going at a medium walking speed, but it did not seem to care how much weight was piled on it. The seat was wide enough for 3 kids, easy, with room on the back near the engine for a couple more, and it would haul that full load or 2 adults on the seat and a couple of kids on the back.

Geared low enough, you have plenty or torque on hand. Only question is if you are willing to settle for walking speed....Joe
 

aliusa

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So the tires I have are 10 inches.

On pavement it pushes me close to 10 mph, acceleration is slow but my runway is only a block so maybe with more distance it can pick up speed. And this is fairly flat area.

I haven't had the kids try on pavement since they still have a lot to learn on how to drive it. I'm expecting it to hit 15 (they are 45 and 75lbs).

It's 11t max torque clutch. I was looking for 10t but 5/8 with a 35 chain don't exist. I then wanted jump to a 66t sprocket bit was unable to find one. Plus with the 60t my clearance is just 3inches.

So I figured something like this would help http://gtcmanufacturing.com/GTC-Jackshaft-Gear-Reduction-Kit-Gokart.aspx but if it is a very minimal improvement might not be worth it. I'll just upgrade to a predator when the kids get better.

Also wanted to prove to myself and small engine can be enough.
 

Smerft85

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Forgot about the smaller shaft on the tiny briggs engines. You may need to figure out a larger tooth count for the axle sprocket, the reason it doesn't accelerate well is because of the high gearing, which is also hard on the clutch. I'd also consider a second kart built more for an adult, leave the 2.5hp kart to the kids, but fix the gearing. I have a kart specifically for my kids even though I drive them around in it, I don't prefer it so I have a couple just for me and other adults. 3" is a lot more clearance than I have on a couple, you can always add a skid plate of sorts under the sprocket to protect it if you have a welder, or know someone who does.
 

JTSpeedDemon

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Sorry, but a 2.5 Briggs is never going to have much torque! The only real option is to gear it down lower. A jackshaft may be in order.
 

aliusa

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Took it out for a spin today. With my son on my lap total weight of 200+ we got top speed of 16mph. We did a few laps before the engine just stopped.

But I also think there's something up with the engine too, it doesn't start up when it's hot. That's another thing I need to investigate.

But bottom line we both had fun :-D

Thanks,
A
 

Brianator

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Those (engine stopping and not restarting when hot) could be a sign of low compression due to a worn bore/rings. How does it feel when pulling the rope when its cold? And again after it's hot? Is there much difference between the 2 or is it not very noticeable? Failing coils can break down when hot also so before the next ride pop a spare plug in the boot, ground it and examine the spark, then when it shuts down while hot use the same plug and have another look. Could be something else but those are the 2 things that jump out at me. More run time = more fun time so hopefully you can get it sorted out quick time! Lol
 

JTSpeedDemon

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Sounds like a failing coil to me. I'm 90% sure a lot of my erratic running problems were cured because I swapped out the 30+ year old ignition coil.

---------- Post added at 07:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------

Also, a new spark plug won't hurt, unless you've already done that.

Wait up - A lot of Briggs have ignition points, have you replaced the condenser, if it has one? Condensers go bad very frequently.
 

aliusa

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I purchased a new plug. Should I run with the old first let the engine get hot. Stop it. And then verify that I can't start it. And then swap the plugs and see if it'll start?

How do I check if its
- ignition coil
- condenser
- low compression

I'm pretty new debugging small engines issues. Excuse the newbie questions. I have to Google half the things you guys are saying 😂
 

Brianator

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It's not advisable to remove/install plugs while the engine is hot, due to thermal expansion you risk damaging the threads on the head. I'd pop the new plug in and see if the engine stays running once hot, if not then it's not the issue but it didn't cost much to find out.

Yes you can test the condenser (do a google search for testing ignition condensor) but for the few dollars they cost it's not a bad idea to just replace it, they are a consumable item that should be replaced fairly regularly.

You can test the coil with a multimeter IF you know the resistance values you're testing for...

I described how to test the coil and for compression in true "shade tree mechanic" fashion above in post #9.

Testing the points is easy if there's and inspection cover on the flywheel (usually is), with a multimeter you test for continuity while the points are closed (touching).

Process of elimination is key to diagnosing issues, I usually start with the cheap/free and easy things and work my way up to the more advanced stuff. Identifying where to start is what can be tricky sometimes! Good luck and don't be shy with the questions, we've all been there!
 

ol'joe

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The B&S engines of that era had a quirk known as "easy spin starting" that was a sort of built in compression release that brought on problems with shutting down or failure to start when hot.

If you watch carefully, just as the piston comes up on compression stroke, the intake valve, just for an instant, raises just a tad and closes again, letting off a portion of the compression. One of the very best things a guy can do for those engines after they get some wear is to increase the valve clearance a bit....maybe an extra .010, although the amount is not critical.

The usual pattern causing problems is that the valve face wears against the seat, eliminating any clearance that exists, and as the valve heats up it's effective length also increases and that persnickety low clearance that allows the "easy spin starting" scheme to work is just too small when everything is hot and the valves never fully close at operating temperature.

Removing as little as .010 to .020 from both valves at the end that connects with the valve lifter will increase compression enough that you can actually FEEL the difference in resistance at the starter rope, AND in the fact that the dang thing keeps running when hot......Joe
 

aliusa

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Wow great info!

So I swapped the spark plugs but the engine stopped running after a min. But it may not be the plug. I assumed there was fairly new engine oil it because the person I bought it from said he recently serviced it. Well, its extremely black. I plan to change the oil and try again!

Here are pics of the plug.
 

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aliusa

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With a fresh oil change and a new plug. Still doesn't start when hot.

So what's the next easy/inexpensive check for me? Should I try those carb spray starters?

@ol'joe I'm not experienced enough I think to.do that so I'll save that.tor later :)
 

JTSpeedDemon

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The B&S engines of that era had a quirk known as "easy spin starting" that was a sort of built in compression release that brought on problems with shutting down or failure to start when hot.

If you watch carefully, just as the piston comes up on compression stroke, the intake valve, just for an instant, raises just a tad and closes again, letting off a portion of the compression. One of the very best things a guy can do for those engines after they get some wear is to increase the valve clearance a bit....maybe an extra .010, although the amount is not critical.

The usual pattern causing problems is that the valve face wears against the seat, eliminating any clearance that exists, and as the valve heats up it's effective length also increases and that persnickety low clearance that allows the "easy spin starting" scheme to work is just too small when everything is hot and the valves never fully close at operating temperature.

Removing as little as .010 to .020 from both valves at the end that connects with the valve lifter will increase compression enough that you can actually FEEL the difference in resistance at the starter rope, AND in the fact that the dang thing keeps running when hot......Joe

@ol'joe - There's something I want to add. Yes grinding the valve stems will counteract that compression release, but also consider that it actually DECREASES valve lift, so there's really not much to be gained by that method. Also please note there's nothing to be gained by modifying the exhaust valve or lobe, it's only the intake valve that relieves compression.

However, I have taken a 3 HP Briggs flathead and hopped it up a bit for free. I encountered the compression release as well, and my solution was to actually take a file and grind off a bit of the LOBE of intake lobe of the cam. Not where it opens the valve, but the very slight bump that actuates the Easy-Spin. This method bumps up the compression and takes advantage of the whole compression stroke, plus keeps the same valve lift.
After doing that to the cam on my engine, plus some other mods, the l'il 3 horse is a THUMPER! It feels noticeably more powerful and runs strong. It's a little harder to pull over, but I like being able to feel the distinction between strokes anyway.

@aliusa - It may be a good idea to check your valve lash with a feeler guage, sometimes that can make an engine do what you're describing.
Also, black oil is not necessarily bad, it just shows that the oil is doing it's cleaning element. Now metal shavings in the oil, on the other hand(little sparklies), are VERY BAD.

We need to determine if you have ignition points or the modern Magnetron coil. Look at my 3rd picture, do you have a wire going behind your flywheel like my engine?
 

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ol'joe

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Yeah, I know that increasing valve lash does not improve performance but those valves and seats DO wear, and they start and keep running better when hot if the valves have enough clearance. Keep in mind that I was servicing lawn mowers and such so that Mamma could get them started and keep them running until the lawn was mowed so Pappa could spend more time at the bar.. :) Back then, performance was NOT my bag.

One other thing to check on small B&S that die after warming up is that the main bearings were designed for the aluminum flywheels, and the horizontal shafts have iron or steel flywheels that have a LOT more weight. Sometimes that will wear out the- main bearing and oil will climb up the shaft and soak the points, making them non-conductive.

When they get that bad, though, you can tell just by giving the flywheel a good shake up and down and if it moves a LOT, your main bearing has had it. You can ream and replace with a bushing, but the setup to ream the hole exactly straight with the bore is costly, and not likely at that point that the block is worth saving.....Joe
 
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