Hello, another newbie to the forum

[ShadowNightmares]

Hello fellow users, my name is Deusimar, and i'm from Brazil.


I discovered go-karts in 2007-2008, and that was a mind-blown experience for me. (my older sister brought me and my little brother to a shopping center, and in the parking lot there was a indoor go-kart driveway. She paid for all 3 of us to drive, she with my brother in one and me in another. The go-kart models were Fapinha Cross Dakar (brazilian brand of offroad go-karts, pocket bikes and quads/ATVs, even appearing in tv series and soap operas).




Since then i was really wanting one for me, but the price was always too high, for new and used, but here and there i saw people in my city with off-road go-karts, and i was okay with that, and for a long time i forgot about them.


From 2-3 years ago, that same fire burned in my heart again, and i began again to see indoor kart driveways in shopping centers (they disappeared from my past with the offroad ones and appeared again with on-road karts, but never had the chance to drive an on-road go-kart unfortunately), search go-karts on the internet and plans for building them.


Youtube was my friend, and it was there that i saw lots and lots of videos about it. A lot of youtubers, like Krisuno, Austiwawa, Huntsteven6, Koupvasir and Funcional Artist (last two that are here as i know) made me the closest that i get to the possibility of making a go-kart for me, and even with my actual unemployment and lack of tools/materials, this time i will make one for me, be with motorcycle engines, electric motors, or even alternators converted into electric motors!!

 

[itsid]

Welcome aboard Deusimar..

yes, karts are addictive I'm afraid..
but fear not, we can try to supply your daily dose of healthy go kart babble.
And if you have questions, we will try our best to be of service.

Take a look at our fellow member KartFab's website
(kartfab.com)
you will find free plans for a two seater road kart.
should be a great starting point to have easy to follow plans and video advice to go with it.

But we will try to help however you will decide and whatever you will be starting to build.

'sid

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Thanks, itsid, for the welcome.

My general idea to make a go-kart is for a really simple one, and because i don't have many tools (only screwdrivers, some small metal bits with a 220v drill, hammer and a hacksaw), the project of a no-weld-needed go-kart from Colin Furze ( youtu.be/vuRV-uXGy1w ) was a blessing for me.


For the "powertrain" i'm still in doubt, to use a motorcycle/pitbike engine i need it to be new from dealers (to get the invoice proving that its legally obtained) or from salvage auctions (to be considered legally bought), and electric motors are expensive to bring to Brazil (huge importing fees and shipping implied, and the icing in the cake is: 1USD$=4,20R$)


If considered the idea of converting an alternator to motor, the idea would be to import a bigger controller from Sabvoton, Kelly Controller, Curtis or other brands (100A continuous for 48v or 72v) and put 2 equal alternators to work in the same axle, driven by the same controller.


For the batteries, in the case of electric motors, it won't be much more expensive to search vendors with 18650 legit batteries here (just need to import the busbars and supports for them), only more time-consuming, and i don't know about lead batteries and their price/capacity/weight ratio.

 

[itsid]

I like Colin and most of his madness is really pleasing to watch..
but I really am not too much of a fan of a bolt-together kart
Never was, never will be.
checking bolts every other time you want to ride is tedious,
and you WILL forget it once or twice..
bolts will wallow out a hole and/or rattle loose...

Do yourself a favour and skip all high speed engines
no motorcycle engine, no pitbike, nothing with a gearbox..
a plain old low to mid powered industrial engine at MAX..

So some lifan 168f or similar clone should do well and not break the bank either.
(honda gx200 true clone that is)

Frankly, you can buy a stick welder for cheap.. a filler-wire welder (mig style)
for a tad more even in brazil (spending 50 bucks on bolts or 60 on a welder?)

heck I bet if you cut the frame tubes in your garage, take the tubes to a local carshop and
give the guy with the welding mask them ol' puppy eyes and a tip;
you'll have a firmly welded stable chassis in a few hours.

you can also just buy a premade chassis..
it might be hard to find one, but eventually they show up all around the world.

stay away from making 18650 batpacks yourself!
that is ALWAYS a very dangerous task..
non trustworthy cells
can put you in the center of a really scary lithium fire.
and a single bad cell is enough to get you badly harmed or even killed.

'sid

 

[ShadowNightmares]

First of all, thanks again for the answer (and forgive my errors, english isn't fluent for me and i'm in a smartphone)

but I really am not too much of a fan of a bolt-together kart
Never was, never will be.
checking bolts every other time you want to ride is tedious,
and you WILL forget it once or twice..
bolts will wallow out a hole and/or rattle loose...

Do yourself a favour and skip all high speed engines
no motorcycle engine, no pitbike, nothing with a gearbox..
a plain old low to mid powered industrial engine at MAX.

So some lifan 168f or similar clone should do well and not break the bank either.
(honda gx200 true clone that is)

okay, risking from my list the motorcycle/pitbike motors, including these motors you said (and motors like the Predator 212 as well, that here are called "stationary engines")

Frankly, you can buy a stick welder for cheap.. a filler-wire welder (mig style)
for a tad more even in brazil (spending 50 bucks on bolts or 60 on a welder?)

heck I bet if you cut the frame tubes in your garage, take the tubes to a local carshop and
give the guy with the welding mask them ol' puppy eyes and a tip;
you'll have a firmly welded stable chassis in a few hours.

you can also just buy a premade chassis..
it might be hard to find one, but eventually they show up all around the world.

Alright, i can buy a MMA welding machine in my country directly (prices beginnig with 60$, just need the consumables and the time to learn how to weld).


MIG welding machines are 2-3x more expensive than MMA welding machines, and i didn't even counted the gas. The metal tubes i can buy as well, that's easy for me.

stay away from making 18650 batpacks yourself!
that is ALWAYS a very dangerous task..
non trustworthy cells
can put you in the center of a really scary lithium fire.
and a single bad cell is enough to get you badly harmed or even killed.

wow wow wow wow, i knew that they could be dangerous, but i have a technical degree in electricity and its uses, so i would buy and use spot welders or that spring-locked mechanism that people says to use, BMS to not explode, hv gloves and other things to protect myself, lead batteries would be too heavy to have good range and capacity (at least with my actual knowledge, because the karts in YT that i see with lead acid batteries weight 180lb+ easily

 

[itsid]

mig -style filler wire means NO gas! (essentially the thinest welding 'stick' you can imagine )
and cheaper ones are around 90 bucks around the world I think (thanks to the internet...)

And yes, learning to weld is crucial;
but all you will need is to be able to lay down a solid weld, not a beautiful one
at first.
So chances are you can get a decent weld layed down within hours;
watching a few dos and don'ts videos on yew tube and following along ...
a wekkened and you can make a sturdy weld I bet.

well "stationary" is sortof incorrect, but yes.
they're on mobile generators, pressure washers, tillers, compactors and all sorts of industrial gear.. some of which stationary, some not so much
sooo "industrial engine" is I think the better fitting terminology
doesn't matter waht you call it as long as you're able to find it locally you'll be able to buy one

Sure, lead acid cells are bigger and heavier (roughly 30% heavier per Ah)
but they're also a fraction of the cost usually
(compared to store bought 12V LiIon batteries of similar capacity)

a BMS will not protect you from a runaway cell btw and
one runaway cell overheating can cause the entire block to go into meltdown.
(which with lithium means RUN AS FAST AND FAR as possible
what you want is high discharge cells (20-30Amp per cell)
around here they cost 10 bucks a pop as 18650 ...
There's another 'typical' size cell however.. 38120 or 40152 etc...
bigger, higher discharge rate, way less cells per battery needed
overall maybe less expensive even.
and those have threaded terminals already so a screw on busbar is all you need
apart fromt he BMS.
Since a battery spot welder is way more expensive than any of the ordinary welders above btw
decent DIY ones are around 150-200 and professional ones around 350 around here.

and the nickel strips are unfortunately yet another variable to take into account otherwise...
(too many fake nickel strips available these days)

But if you are aware of all that and able to make such batterypack in a professional manner..
go ahead.

Now. motor..
an alternator is a terrible motor as a motor makes a terrible alternator.
it's nice to get the finger moving and such, but it's highly inefficient
and essentially only worth the hassle if you got the alternator for free really.

Curtis controllers are very expensive
and while being of high quality;
a kellycontroller (good quality) is way cheaper and the much better bang for the buck IYAM.

if you want to go electrical take a very close look around,
sometimes you find golf carts or forklifts and whatnot for cheap (without batteries usually)
you can salvage the motor and the controller from.
giving you a head start
in case of a golf cart it might even have some other bits you can use for the kart.
Wheels, axles, steering maybe.. throttle of course steering wheel and such...

'sid

 

[ShadowNightmares]

mig -style filler wire means NO gas! (essentially the thinest welding 'stick' you can imagine )
and cheaper ones are around 90 bucks around the world I think (thanks to the internet...)

okay, let me explain better, arc welders costs about 60USD here, gas-less mig welders cost 100-120USD

well "stationary" is sort of incorrect, but yes.
they're on mobile generators, pressure washers, tillers, compactors and all sorts of industrial gear.. some of which stationary, some not so much
sooo "industrial engine" is I think the better fitting terminology
doesn't matter waht you call it as long as you're able to find it locally you'll be able to buy one

Sorry
I was just using the name that i see people using here in my country

Sure, lead acid cells are bigger and heavier (roughly 30% heavier per Ah)
but they're also a fraction of the cost usually
(compared to store bought 12V LiIon batteries of similar capacity)

but what kind of lead acid batteries i search? gel batteries? traction batteries? sla batteries?

what you want is high discharge cells (20-30Amp per cell)
around here they cost 10 bucks a pop as 18650 ...
There's another 'typical' size cell however.. 38120 or 40152 etc...

i searched about those 38120 LiFePo4 batteries before, they look really powerful, but the problem is that i don't find them here, and to import lithium batteries (being LI-ion, LiPo, LiFePo4, and any other type of lithium composite) into my country is almost as difficult as to have a children (there is so much bureaucracy in importations that is easier to import them to another country besides Brazil (the closest for me is Paraguay) and go there personally to catch them

Now. motor..
an alternator is a terrible motor as a motor makes a terrible alternator.
it's nice to get the finger moving and such, but it's highly inefficient
and essentially only worth the hassle if you got the alternator for free really.

Curtis controllers are very expensive
and while being of high quality;
a kellycontroller (good quality) is way cheaper and the much better bang for the buck IYAM.

if you want to go electrical take a very close look around,
sometimes you find golf carts or forklifts and whatnot for cheap (without batteries usually)
you can salvage the motor and the controller from.
giving you a head start
in case of a golf cart it might even have some other bits you can use for the kart.
Wheels, axles, steering maybe.. throttle of course steering wheel and such...

Lets talk about the motors and controllers: i understand this detail about the alternators (low efficiency), but it's easier for me to get alternators... i've trying to contact companies which works with forklifts, trying to know if they would have forklift motors for me, and no one have. My city and state aren't well known for golf clubs, but if here have 3 golf courses here, i would be impressed, so golf carts are as difficult to get.


To import electric motors and controllers, it would be a loooooong journey (and with the taxes almost prohibitive). I would need to redirect my products to another country and go personally to get them there (the customs' price limit to importing packages is 50/100USD, and its a hairball to not get "robbed" with their taxes), but if i walk though the country border and buy something there to bring here, the limit is 300USD (the president is preparing a new law to get this 300USD limit up to 500USD, i'm waiting for that).

 

[ShadowNightmares]

I found a guy in a car club that i'm in, and he owns an indoor kart driveway, and he have some karts stored in a car garage. Maybe i could buy an old kart chassis to repair and restore to their glory.

Do yourself a favour and skip all high speed engines
no motorcycle engine, no pitbike, nothing with a gearbox

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OhZK_wyPqY

Well... i know that you already said "no" to pitbike/motorbike engines, but a channel that i follow made this video, and in there looked so easy to build one shifter kart, and some used bike motors i can find costing 140US$ or more, while to build electric systems would cost A LOT more for me.

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

Sorry, but I call cowpoo.
First off, he didn't give any information AT ALL of what he was using. What kind of steel, the engine, the tires, the list includes EVERYTHING he used in the video.
Second off, he didn't give ANY measurements!
I love how he was welding in flip flops on a chip board table. *giggle*(yes, that's bad)
It looks cool, but it is highly misleading that he titled it as a tutorial.
Also, the PVC sleeves are a terrible idea on a shifter kart, because yes, I'd kinds prefer to have brakes at all times.

There is a lot more to building a kart than that video shows.
Best would be to get a suitable industrial engine and use that, they're good solid kart powerplants.

 

[itsid]

Well... i know that you already said "no" to pitbike/motorbike engines, but a channel that i follow made this video, and in there looked so easy to build one shifter kart, and some used bike motors i can find costing 140US$ or more, while to build electric systems would cost A LOT more for me.

I said no to motorcycle engines on home made bolted together chassis..
(frankly I wouldn't want to aim for any high speed setup on a home welded chassis if it's the first I ever made either...)
Or allow me to rephrase that..
"On quest one stage one you shouldn't sign up for a final boss fight..
you'll certainly be up for a respawn"
Since there is no respawn in real life..
Rule #1 comes into play... "Do not kill yourself!"

Get a professionally made chassis from that kart-track guy
then see what you learned from that and move up one step at a time ...

and once you feel ready to weld your own chassis,
you will know if it's handling well or not..
thanks to the experience you gathered on a professionally made chassis.

'sid

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

Yeah, I know a kid from church who made his own go kart. He says his welds were so bad that he hit the brakes, and the front end just kept rolling........separate from the kart.......
So yes, for a first time, a homemade chassis+shifter engine is a bad idea.
A mass produced or company produced kart would be a good option, but I guess there's not too many options in Brazil.

 

[Dingocat]

At the very least get a yard kart and beat on it for a year of so, it'll give you an idea of what works and what doesn't. Like my one Manco, the side bars keep breaking because of a poor design(no support) and poor welds.

 

[Flyinhillbilly]

mig -style filler wire means NO gas! (essentially the thinest welding 'stick' you can imagine )
and cheaper ones are around 90 bucks around the world I think (thanks to the internet...)

And yes, learning to weld is crucial;
but all you will need is to be able to lay down a solid weld, not a beautiful one
at first.
So chances are you can get a decent weld layed down within hours;
watching a few dos and don'ts videos on yew tube and following along ...
a wekkened and you can make a sturdy weld I bet.

well "stationary" is sortof incorrect, but yes.
they're on mobile generators, pressure washers, tillers, compactors and all sorts of industrial gear.. some of which stationary, some not so much
sooo "industrial engine" is I think the better fitting terminology
doesn't matter waht you call it as long as you're able to find it locally you'll be able to buy one

Sure, lead acid cells are bigger and heavier (roughly 30% heavier per Ah)
but they're also a fraction of the cost usually
(compared to store bought 12V LiIon batteries of similar capacity)

a BMS will not protect you from a runaway cell btw and
one runaway cell overheating can cause the entire block to go into meltdown.
(which with lithium means RUN AS FAST AND FAR as possible
what you want is high discharge cells (20-30Amp per cell)
around here they cost 10 bucks a pop as 18650 ...
There's another 'typical' size cell however.. 38120 or 40152 etc...
bigger, higher discharge rate, way less cells per battery needed
overall maybe less expensive even.
and those have threaded terminals already so a screw on busbar is all you need
apart fromt he BMS.
Since a battery spot welder is way more expensive than any of the ordinary welders above btw
decent DIY ones are around 150-200 and professional ones around 350 around here.

and the nickel strips are unfortunately yet another variable to take into account otherwise...
(too many fake nickel strips available these days)

But if you are aware of all that and able to make such batterypack in a professional manner..
go ahead.

Now. motor..
an alternator is a terrible motor as a motor makes a terrible alternator.
it's nice to get the finger moving and such, but it's highly inefficient
and essentially only worth the hassle if you got the alternator for free really.

Curtis controllers are very expensive
and while being of high quality;
a kellycontroller (good quality) is way cheaper and the much better bang for the buck IYAM.

if you want to go electrical take a very close look around,
sometimes you find golf carts or forklifts and whatnot for cheap (without batteries usually)
you can salvage the motor and the controller from.
giving you a head start
in case of a golf cart it might even have some other bits you can use for the kart.
Wheels, axles, steering maybe.. throttle of course steering wheel and such...

'sid

Actually, mig stands for
Metal
Inert Gas
What you’re thinking of and describing is flux core welding.

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

Yup. I hear pro weldors make a distinction between Metal Inert Gas welding and
Flux Core Arc Welding(FCAW).

 

[itsid]

Actually, mig stands for
Metal
Inert Gas
What you’re thinking of and describing is flux core welding.

I know, that's why I said MIG-STYLE (twice)

Frankly, you can buy a stick welder for cheap.. a filler-wire welder (mig style)
for a tad more even in brazil (spending 50 bucks on bolts or 60 on a welder?)

mig -style filler wire means NO gas! (essentially the thinest welding 'stick' you can imagine )

"flux core" escaped me at the time (we call them Fülldraht Schweissgerät around here..
and they still pop up online as MIG [mine has at least a gas hose in the handle so meh.. still agonizing])
but since I don't know what they're called in portuguese, "filler wire" (fülldraht) was sufficiently close ...

'sid

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Sorry, but I call cowpoo.
First off, he didn't give any information AT ALL of what he was using. What kind of steel, the engine, the tires, the list includes EVERYTHING he used in the video.
Second off, he didn't give ANY measurements!
I love how he was welding in flip flops on a chip board table. *giggle*(yes, that's bad)
It looks cool, but it is highly misleading that he titled it as a tutorial.
Also, the PVC sleeves are a terrible idea on a shifter kart, because yes, I'd kinds prefer to have brakes at all times.

There is a lot more to building a kart than that video shows.
Best would be to get a suitable industrial engine and use that, they're good solid kart powerplants.

Well, i agree about the video not being "complete" or even "safe" to follow, but i was talking about the idea and the style of the build, "easier" to weld than round tubes. I could get measurements and tips with other channels.

I said no to motorcycle engines on home made bolted together chassis..
(frankly I wouldn't want to aim for any high speed setup on a home welded chassis if it's the first I ever made either...)
Or allow me to rephrase that..
"On quest one stage one you shouldn't sign up for a final boss fight..
you'll certainly be up for a respawn"
Since there is no respawn in real life..
Rule #1 comes into play... "Do not kill yourself!"

Get a professionally made chassis from that kart-track guy
then see what you learned from that and move up one step at a time ...

and once you feel ready to weld your own chassis,
you will know if it's handling well or not..
thanks to the experience you gathered on a professionally made chassis.

Okay, time to forget the idea about making my own chassis, time to buy a chassis from the kart guy (It may have some cracks but that i can ask for a welder to help).

At the very least get a yard kart and beat on it for a year of so, it'll give you an idea of what works and what doesn't. Like my one Manco, the side bars keep breaking because of a poor design(no support) and poor welds.

Alright... My idea about buying the old street chassis or to build a new one is because every yard/offroad kart that i see for sale here is really expensive for what they can actually do (i'm not talking about engine performance, i'm talking about their weight limits and size, i'm 1,78-123kg/5ft10-271lbs, and almost every single one is for kids, i could try to find someone that makes offroad ones but my heart always have beating more for street go-karts).

I know, that's why I said MIG-STYLE (twice)


"flux core" escaped me at the time (we call them Fülldraht Schweissgerät around here..
and they still pop up online as MIG [mine has at least a gas hose in the handle so meh.. still agonizing])
but since I don't know what they're called in portuguese, "filler wire" (fülldraht) was sufficiently close ...

'sid

In brazilian portuguese, we have "normal" MIG welders, that need inert gas, and "gasless" MIG, that uses another type of filler wire, that create their own shield, just like MMA/arc welders.

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

Yes, starting with a cracked frame and having it properly repaired is a good idea. Much more suitable for a bike engine if you still want to pursue that.
What kind of prices are go kart frames going for over there? Here in Texas, a rolling frame is usually about $100 USD.

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Yes, starting with a cracked frame and having it properly repaired is a good idea. Much more suitable for a bike engine if you still want to pursue that.
What kind of prices are go kart frames going for over there? Here in Texas, a rolling frame is usually about $100 USD.

I've been talking with the kart guy, and he said that his rolling chassis will be ~600USD/2500R$ (with seat, brakes, tires and wheels, just missing the engine, and when i tried to see how much he would lower the price because the chassis that he stored in the garage was not in optimal condition, he didn't budge a cent), and ~842USD/3500R$ with a 6,5HP engine.

My father talked with me yesterday about one other kart guy, who fixes his Honda motorbike (they're friends and the guy owns and/or works in a motorcycle workshop), and that his used kart would cost ~361USD/1500R$ if anyone wants to buy from him, already with a 125CC bike engine, working brakes, good tires and the works.

 

[Budget GoKart]

get a junk car thats body on frame you got suspension, wheels, brakes, steering, wheels. and from there build a chassis and put your bike motor on

 

[ShadowNightmares]

get a junk car thats body on frame you got suspension, wheels, brakes, steering, wheels. and from there build a chassis and put your bike motor on

I won't lie to you, i liked your idea, but getting a junk car for me would be a little on the excessive side, because i want a go-kart that looks like those track/street ones, with large slick tires. If i was searching for off-road karts, i would go directly to junkyards like a bee searching flowers, because for that purpose, i would try to make vehicles like the XPS Storm, XPS Monstro and XPS Atomic Warrior (every single one of these 3 machines are creations from the brazilian youtube channel, TDS Kart Cross, using car gearboxes and creating 4x4 drivetrains with bike motors): https://www.youtube.com/user/wtwin245/videos