Go Kart ID- what did I buy?

[Mrmonk7663]

Picked up a small single seater today. The rear tube is very large as you will see. Also has provisions for 4 axle bearings. Not sure what all the other stuff on the side of the engine mount plate is for. Has a weird motorcycle style steering bar with twist throttle and brake lever. Pretty cool looking kart. Purportedly it’s from years gone by. Going to put my extra 212 with a 6” torque converter on it. What is this thing? I paid $100 for it.

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

Looks like the same basic design of a Bird Engineering Baja, with the wing bars and the engine cage, but that's all I know.

 

[BigWes]

That rabbit is staring at me bro...

 

[Mrmonk7663]

Haha. The rabbit is awesome. Only 3 months old. The guy that sold the kart said it was an “old Baja” but couldn’t elaborate more.

 

[Mrmonk7663]

It came with what I believe is an old torque converter. Also some kind of jackshaft which seems to go in the holes under the motor mount.

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

In that case, if the PO says it's an old Baja, Bird Baja it is!
Welcome to the Bird/Phoenix Engineering club!
As far as I can tell the Baja was the big brother to the Starbird like mine and Skulldrinker's.
This pic shows the jackshaft setup a bit if that helps.
Nice find!

 

[Mrmonk7663]

I just did some quick research and it indeed looks like the bird Baja. Thanks for the identification. And evidently it had a differential. I think the easiest thing to make this work is a 1” live axle. Replicate jackshaft and use a new torque converter. Use a single drum brake instead of the original 2 that were needed because of the differential. This is going to be a fun little cart. I had no clue it was this old!!!! Happy to join the club

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

I would make the effort to save up for a Peerless diff, since it'd be pretty exotic, but it's all up to you.
Either way it's a very cool find, that I am super pumped up about! And it seems to be a perfectly clean frame!
Can't wait to see the finished product!
Wow, in this year, 2019, all three Bird/Phoenix Engineering karts owned by forum members have been discovered. I really hope there's no more believe it or not, because if there isn't it just means they're rare!

 

[Mrmonk7663]

I had no clue what I was buying but I’m happy I do now I went to see it yesterday and told myself I loved the design. I went back and bought it today. It is a solid frame. No excessive rust, no rust holes. I’ll research the differential. Is it something that can only be had used or is it still available? Also, is the picture I posted the torque converter? The driven is much heavier than my comet clone.

Edit- I found this. http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=179

No idea if this is what you are talking about. Also do you have any idea of the length needed? This one is 38” long.

Assuming that part is correct I believe I would need that and 4 axle bearings and the main drive sprocket (tooth count?) andthe jackshaft sawtooth with sprocket (tooth?) plus jackshaft bearings. Then I would need 2 band brakes...1 for each side of the axle. (4” or 6”?)

Jackshaft sprocket and axle sprocket would be mounted under the engine plate and brakes would be outside. The torque converter would be outside of motor plate also (not butted up against sprocket which would be inboard)

Do I have this correct so far? I don’t mind spending the money to do it right as long as the diff can hold up to the power. It will get a modified predator with intake, exhaust, no govenor, cam and billet flywheel/rod, and a Japanese superjet carb.

You obviously are the information storehouse for these old karts so I defer to your expertise . Thanks!

 

[Hellion]

....Going to put my extra 212 with a 6” torque converter on it....

Hope your 212 fits, that cage is confining.

It was a bare but painted frame when you bought it?

 

[Mrmonk7663]

Yes it was bare and painted with a few random parts in a box. The predator with stock airbox and muffler is a tight fit. Without the stock stuff it will fit fine. The gas tank is the limiting factor on rearward adjustment...but it looks like it will fit fine. And if not then the tank is easy enough to change.

 

[Dingocat]

Look! Another bird. Late to this one, but I've got one sitting around in my barn in need of pretty much everything, way worse condition than yours lol. They cut the front hoop over the engine and crammed a 13 hp clone in it with a 14 tooth clutch and screwed up gearing. 18 inch tires and they put 15's on the front

 

[Hellion]

...They cut the front hoop over the engine and crammed a 13 hp clone in it with a 14 tooth clutch and screwed up gearing. 18 inch tires and they put 15's on the front

Sacrilege!

Hope you bring it somewhere back to its former glory.

 

[Mrmonk7663]

@jtspeeddemon take a look at post #9 and see what you think. Also one additional question. Why does the thing have three sprockets? A bolt mounts in the “slot” on the motor mount box. What is this wizardry?

Dingocat-they put a 420 on it? Good lord. Seeing how the bare frame only weighs about 60lbs that would be pretty crazy. When I was a kid in the late 80s and early 90s go karts were everywhere. Now they are much harder to find. I have been fortunate in the last 2 months to find my 3203, 3206 and now the bird. Only other kart I’m interested in now is a dingo 285.

Once the Baja bird is setup it should be a hard runner with its wmextremely light weight. The only thing I am going to modify on the frame is the steering...like my 3203 and many other karts, it has a lot of movement. I’m gonna put a bronze bushing in to take up the slop.

The carb certified predators come with a smaller gas tank. I’m gonna look around and see if I can find one.

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

Yes the Peerless one you linked is what I am talking about, it's expensive but I would go for it if it's the right length.
Dingocat: Welcome to the Bird Engineering owners' club!
I really don't know if that's a piece of TC, but it probably is as I can't think of anything else it could be for.
The Peerless website seems to say it can handle up to 150 ft-lbs of torque, so I don't think you need to worry.
I don't know what you mean with the "three sprockets". As for the slot below the engine plate, I can only imagine that something used to be mounted there.
Dingocat, it sucks that you also have a hacked up Bird, but hey! You have a Bird!
And mrmonk, it's great you got such a clean frame, but it also kinda sucks it's all taken apart and you don't know how it goes together.

 

[Mrmonk7663]

So the slot on the side I have circled. In the slot a bolt goes through. A sprocket is on the bolt. The bolt can move in the slot. The engine mounting plate has holes to mount the engine, not slots like a normal mounting plate. I am taking a guess here but I’m tempted to say that the 3rd sprocket rides in too if the chain and acts as a chain tensioner. I can’t see any other reason for it, especially since the engine mounting plate isn’t slotted to allow you to tension the chain. If this is in fact the case, would the sprocket effect gear ratio at all?

I’ll order the peerless soon. While the live axle would be easier and cheaper...it will be fun to try something new.

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

That must be a mount for an idler sprocket(a sprocket with a bearing in the middle) or something similar, I agree it must be for a chain tensioner.
Make sure to measure to make sure the diff axle will be long enough!

---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 AM ----------

And no, the idler sprocket will not affect gear ratio.

 

[Mrmonk7663]

Confirmed with the owner that the kart “had a chain tensioner” so that is exactly what it is. Did research last night on another forum where I guy was building one of these. He stated that the stock axle length was 38” and used that length without issue. And the link I posted is 38” overall so that should work.

I’ll look into finding a new idler sprocket assembly. Have to find a new jackshaft too..the keyway is kind of rough.

The threaded standoffs on the side...best guess is that is where the brake band mounts too.

 

[JTSpeedDemon]

BMIKarts has idler sprockets galore: https://www.bmikarts.com/search_results.html?k=idler+sprocket&search=
Can't wait to see this build come together!
If you're already doing a stage 2-3ish 212, I would go the full nine yards and port and polish the heck out of the head, ratio rockers, bronze valve guides, big valves, etc.
Basically I'd just go the whole way and make a stage 4 212. With a diff on a reasonably rare frame, that would be one EPIC street kart!

 

[Mrmonk7663]

Haha. I can do the build that way or close to it. Not a problem. The only thing I would need to look into would be a 40 series converter possibly. The converter and modified engine would be about $1000 like that.diff, wheels, seat, bearings, spindles etc etc...a $2000 go kart all said and done if I take this route. Pricey but it sounds epic. We shall see.

Last thing to figure out in the rear is gearing. I have no idea what the stock axle and jackshaft sprockets were so I need a starting point. Tires, assuming a full
Blown predator build, I’m thinking 18” in the rear and 15” up front. No way I am going to put the skinny tires on the front like stock had. I’m just guessing at tire height so if I’m off base steer me in the right direction.