Ghost or Predator with hop-up?

[Wicked_Daddy]

I have a Lifan 6.5 that came with the kart. I restored everything, cleaned up the engine and it runs well. Governor was deleted. I jetted the stock carb and added air filter and exhaust - basically a stage 1 by the definitions I have now researched.

But the possibilities?

I keep reading remarks about how it would be cheaper the buy a stock Predator 212 and hop it up, then to buy a Predator Ghost and just be done with it. So I searched all the parts - billet flywheel, piston, rod, cam, valve springs, vm22 carb. To buy the Predator and all that stuff would be around $700. To buy a Ghost and its (pretty much required) accessory kit, would be $550, with no discounts. The Ghost is rated to 6k. I imagine a built Predator would be about the same. Has anyone taken apart a Ghost to see how it's built?

So what am I missing?

Also, it seems CVTs are loved by mini-bike riders for the addition of speed and low end torque. But I've read they are not good for karts with small tires (mine)... That CC are better. But I like low end torque for its launch. Why is a CC better for a kart like mine if a CVT provides low end and overall higher speed? I have a CC now and I have to floor it and let it engage slowly as it gets up to speed. I want more off the line snappiness. Do I focus on engine power or clutch type?

I have a feeling it's going to be both. I am having fun with this thing ripping around my local high school parking lot (adjacent to my neighborhood). But now that the bug has bit me, I want more. I want neck breaking launch and hair on fire speed.

 

[Hellion]

I too would like a stock 212 Predator to 212 Ghost to 224 Max Performance comparison. I should look for a few past threads and see if we covered it....

Also, it seems CVTs are loved by mini-bike riders for the addition of speed and low end torque. But I've read they are not good for karts with small tires (mine)...

No, the reverse is true. To move a large wheeled kart and/or for off road use (needing low range ratio to climb hills, etc) a CVT is pretty much a necessity. The straight-chain centrifugal-clutch-to-drive sprocket setup is for basically small tires and all out speed or racing. You gas it, lock up the clutch (fully engaged) and go.

No one races with CVTs because they have parasitic drag (theft of engine power) but you can use a CVT on a small wheel kart, nothing wrong with that. GO FOR IT.

Is there room for it on the chassis?

 

[Edwin Spangler]

I have one of those Ghost motors. It definitely has the parts it claims. It doesnt have the billet flywheel tho.

I think you want the CVT more than you realize already. You got the bug as you say. The CVT kinda keeps it at bay, being able to adjust it for different launches and speeds, different shifting speeds. Really lets you tune the drivability exactly to your liking. Gives you something to play with, without having to upgrade something. Well, scratch that. Youll be wanting to upgrade the CVT parts.

 

[Hellion]

And upgrade to a GENUINE COMET BELT.

 

[Denny]

A ghost predator with hop ups sounds spooky. . I’m sceered.

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

Why buy a new engine. You have a good 212 as is.
Put a real Carb on it. A slide type not a butterfly.
For longevity a billet rod. flat top piston if yours is dished. And a flywheel if you want to.
If you want to go crazy then put a cam and springs too.
Your lifan 6.5 should be the same as a predaderp 212.

Id skip the ghost unless your unskilled or just dont want to bother with building your engine.
I think the flywheel taper is different and so is the rod end diameter. so you cant swap with regular 212 hot rod parts. But I could be wrong.

 

[panchothedog]

WTR is right. Your lifan engine is a great place to start a build. I am thinking that it is probably a 196 cc displacement. Its called a clone engine. EVERY hop up part
available for the predator is also available for the clone engine. I have two hopped up 196's, along with 212 and 224. I can't tell the difference from the 196 and the 212. The 224 yes, it makes more torque because of the longer stroke. Why spend money on a new engine. Take that money and buy a trick head, or if you are near a machine shop have the stock head milled .065". It will raise the compression ratio. You can easily get 13 hp out of the lifan. FWIW, the 224 is a lot more difficult to build. The block has to be clearanced in 4 separate places because of the size of the ARC rod. The 196 and the 212 no issues at all. Don't go buy what you don't need.

 

[Hellion]

I’ve seen karts with CVTs spin the tires on gravel and dirt but not on pavement. There’s probably too much traction for that on pavement and with wide sticky racing slicks, but I don’t know. A CVT is definitely the way to go for having a 1-5th gear automatic transmission on a kart.

Now we need a chart with the pros and cons of the:

212cc Predator non-Hemi
212cc Predator Hemi
212cc Predator Ghost
224cc Predator Max Performance
196cc Greyhound (a rare bird these days)

 

[Wicked_Daddy]

Thanks ALL.

I got one of those CVTs off Amazon just to test fit it. I don't think that is going to work. I would have to raise the engine considerably for the CVT to have some space between it and the axle sprocket. Not out of the question to do this but, considering the above advice, I will build the Lifan (196cc) first and give it a better CC before passing judgement. I do like the idea of making the mods to the engine. Wrenching is almost as fun as enjoying the results. It's a zen thing.

 

[Hellion]

Can you move the seat over to add clearance? I think your frame is far removed from its racing days but you should see a few “full tactical” (ready to go regardless of ‘aesthetics’) karts where the rider seems to be an afterthought. Accommodation is made for the engine, chain and sprocket on a sidewinder kart but the seat is often pushed over and skewed inward making the driver sit at an angle, not true fore/aft parallel to the direction of travel.

EDIT: I think you can index or clock the CVT with the myriad holes pre-drilled in the backing plate plus an engine riser is not out of the question.

Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

 

[Hellion]

Do you have the CVT in your possession? It's not clear, but when you do, post pics of your CVT and a mock up of where it should go in order to work. I have seen engines situated further out than yours with the blower shroud almost resting on the tire (oh no!). Oh, and...

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

Where did you find new help Hellion?

Some 1.25 square tube is all I've needed for engine risers. Drill 2 holes in the right spot for thru bolts.
Makes up for the backplate being lower.

 

[Denny]

My new future ex-wife!!!

 

[Hellion]

Where did you find new help Hellion?

Kidnapped her! If you look closely at her ankles you can see the watermark I missed (D'oh!) when I was making her my slave.

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

Ankles?
I didn't get past the sign.

 

[panchothedog]

For neck snapping acceleration ( which is what you say you want ) the torque converter is the only way to go. It doesn't have to be pointed towards the rear of the kart. As long as you can get the chain from the TC to the axle, the plate can be clocked in a lot of ways. Raising the engine is a very common fix. It should have come with two drive sprockets. 10 tooth for the 420 chain, and 12 tooth for the # 35 chain. ( probably what you have ). The 12 will be good with the small tires, maybe even a 14. You can certainly experiment. A 10 will be WAY too low of a gear ratio for the short tires. Either way, get ready for " hole shot ". The things
torque converters work great.

 

[panchothedog]

For building your engine be aware. There are differences in the diameter of the cam journal, as well as the taper on the crank shaft ( the side that the flywheel sits on. Also the bore of the 196 is 68mm. The 212 is 70mm. Everything else is the same. For internal parts ( piston, rod, cam, and flywheel ) stay off of Amazon.
Go to OMB Warehouse. Click on Honda performance parts. That is the section that fits the " clone " engine. And it says so. No guessing and hoping necessary.
They have a hop up kit containing the 4 main parts mentioned above plus stiffer valve springs ( needed for higher rpm ) as well as a complete gasket set for
$289. Free shipping. If you sign up with them, they have sales every week and put a good variety of things at 10 % off. Either way, you get quality parts. Rod and flywheel are ARC the best money can buy. Cams are Dyno brand. You won't be disappointed with anything you get from them. I have built at least 4 different engines using these kits.

 

[vpd66]

I say build the 196cc Lifan! This is my low buck yard kart engine build. Get this kit with a flat top piston, ARC rod, and gasket kit.
135071526104

Do a valve job on the head and port it yourself. Don't get crazy with the porting and hog everything out. Just concentrate on working out restrictions in the bowl area and around the valve guide. I like to have .025 taken off the head and with the flat top piston will get you just under 10-1 compression. This will run well on 92 octane pump gas. Use the stock cam with these 1.3 rocker arms and valve springs.
134444230758

Get this cast aluminum flywheel and I've used them on about 4 motors and never had a problem. The only bad thing about these flywheels is they only have 18 degrees of advance . This seller includes a 8 degree flywheel key and a new flywheel nut.
134643315318

I also like to use this adjustable coil mount. With this you can make fast ignition timing adjustment with only taking off the flywheel shroud.
127239037276

For the carburetor I like to use the PZ26 clone carbs. I know there are people that will say it is too big but if you take it apart I find nothing that measures 26mm. It is more like a 22mm carb.
194764058976

You say you already have a header so use it. With all the parts listed I come up just short of $300. Add in the cost of valve job and head milling (I do these myself) and it is still way cheaper then what you figured. This build will make good torque and that is what you're looking for. You only need to turn this engine 5500-6000 rpm and this is what you want for a yard kart. Running around turning a yard kart 7000-8000 rpm is just plane stupid. When you get to the point that this motor doesn't have enough for you then look into building a stroker in the 240cc range. Don't waste you time with a 224cc or less. The more cc the more torque and that is what your after, not high rpm horsepower.

 

[Edwin Spangler]

I say build the 196cc Lifan! This is my low buck yard kart engine build. Get this kit with a flat top piston, ARC rod, and gasket kit.
135071526104

Do a valve job on the head and port it yourself. Don't get crazy with the porting and hog everything out. Just concentrate on working out restrictions in the bowl area and around the valve guide. I like to have .025 taken off the head and with the flat top piston will get you just under 10-1 compression. This will run well on 92 octane pump gas. Use the stock cam with these 1.3 rocker arms and valve springs.
134444230758

Get this cast aluminum flywheel and I've used them on about 4 motors and never had a problem. The only bad thing about these flywheels is they only have 18 degrees of advance . This seller includes a 8 degree flywheel key and a new flywheel nut.
134643315318

I also like to use this adjustable coil mount. With this you can make fast ignition timing adjustment with only taking off the flywheel shroud.
127239037276

For the carburetor I like to use the PZ26 clone carbs. I know there are people that will say it is too big but if you take it apart I find nothing that measures 26mm. It is more like a 22mm carb.
194764058976

You say you already have a header so use it. With all the parts listed I come up just short of $300. Add in the cost of valve job and head milling (I do these myself) and it is still way cheaper then what you figured. This build will make good torque and that is what you're looking for. You only need to turn this engine 5500-6000 rpm and this is what you want for a yard kart. Running around turning a yard kart 7000-8000 rpm is just plane stupid. When you get to the point that this motor doesn't have enough for you then look into building a stroker in the 240cc range. Don't waste you time with a 224cc or less. The more cc the more torque and that is what your after, not high rpm horsepower.

This is unbelievably valuable info.

I had no idea that flywheel existed!

 

[vpd66]

This is unbelievably valuable info.

I had no idea that flywheel existed!

While these are not listed has a racing flywheel they work perfectly for a yard kart or mini bike. They are listed to good up to 10000 rpm but I know for a fact they hold up to 6000 rpm easy! LOL