Converting engine to 6-stroke

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irelandbiker

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Has anyone considered this as a project? I have 1 or 2 Honda clones around I could try to convert to 6 stoke with the 5th stroke being an intake and expansion of air/water and the 6th an exhaust stroke of hot air/steam to cool the combustion chamber for better efficiency.
I know efficiency isn't the main concern of modders here but do you think it would be possible as an engineering project for university..
 

OzFab

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So, you want to take an engine & redesign it so it has 2/3 of its original power, just to cool it down? That sounds a bit counter productive to me...

A few more reasons not to try this (IMO):

1. Water & oil don't mix, on any level; unless the engine is running on water, the fuel is oil based so, the next fuel intake will be immediately contaminated by any remaining water vapour left behind, reducing power output even further...

2. The inside of an engine gets pretty hot, you go injecting water in there & something's either gonna crack or, at the very least, warp, turn the engine into a nice boat anchor.

3. Engines are designed to run better when hot; if you start pumping water into the cylinder(s) to cool it down, it will never run efficiently.
 

irelandbiker

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Been reading extensively on the topic recently, using just air on the 5th stroke wouldnt harm the engine.... in fact probably prolong the engines life due to the lower temperatures, in the case of lawnmowers, cement mixers etc. where the engine isnt experiencing as much resistance then gains in efficiency would be important
 

mckutzy

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So what would be the overall advantage, and in a lawn mower cemant mixer ect industrial motor use.

typically these 6.5hp clone arent going to get much hard use. and for $100 there replaceable.
 

itsid

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I'm sorry this just sounds contra productive, a 4 stroke engine just "produces"
power just 1/4th of the time, reducing that to 1/6th of the time doesn't sound like a good idea at all.
Also if it's done just to cool the block...
honestly: just get a watercooled engine, and add a massive cooler, same idea, less hassle.

The downside (apart from the additional weight) is, that you can run an engine too cool.

You don't want to cool the engine too much, what you want is cool the air as much as you can, that would provide two benefits,
1) the cooler the air, the lesser humidity it can contain
2) the cooler the air, the higher it's density, thus more oxygen

on the other hand.. that would end up in a hotter combustion and might add the necessity of an improved cooling system. ;)

'sid
 

danssoslow

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Would you be graded as well if you did not succeed? If yes, the I'd vote for a yes. There has to be something to take away from a project like this. 20 years ago, who'd have thought we'd have battery powered vehicles? Who'd have thought 10 years ago it would have the performance of a Fiskar, Tesla, or SSC Aero?
 

OasisQc

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6 stroke for me =

 

Doc Sprocket

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Yeah- I'm with Oasis... I'm not sure of the type of 6-stroke you're after.

Now- even though I agree with the above comments (which generally advise against), I will say this: Practicality aside, it might make a cool proof-of-concept/experiment/conversation piece.
 

Desertduler

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Could you please explain this theory in detail? I do indeed make internal combustion engines from scratch and I cannot wrap my mind around on how this engine design would be efficient the energy of combustion from an air fuel mixture has WAY more force than the little steam force that would be created with induction of water in hope it will make any propelling force in the engine.Too cool combustion is not good for power and try some Dyno runs sometime with a BB Chevy and then compare the runs when the engine is fitted with cast iron heads or aluminium heads and then you will see the difference about combustion chamber heat retention and power output.
Been there done that!
 

machinist@large

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Irelandbiker, are you referring to the 6 stroke engine design such as Crower, Griffin and a whole bunch of other people listed in the Wiki have/ are looking at? People being people, I'm just trying to confirm that I'm looking at the type of engine you're asking about...

If I'm looking at the correct Wiki, then your questions start to make a little more sense; it's not introducing water into the extra stroke to cool the engine, it's to capture the latent heat produced by the primary power stroke by generating steam to add another power stroke by capturing the waste heat that would otherwise have to be removed from the engine in some other way. Am I correct on this?

:cheers2::thumbsup::popcorn: Pat
 

Scout

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Could you please explain this theory in detail? I do indeed make internal combustion engines from scratch and I cannot wrap my mind around on how this engine design would be efficient the energy of combustion from an air fuel mixture has WAY more force than the little steam force that would be created with induction of water in hope it will make any propelling force in the engine.Too cool combustion is not good for power and try some Dyno runs sometime with a BB Chevy and then compare the runs when the engine is fitted with cast iron heads or aluminium heads and then you will see the difference about combustion chamber heat retention and power output.
Been there done that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
 

irelandbiker

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My report I had originally intended to be an investigation into the various 6-stroke theorys however the Velozeta Engine is the most doable I think regarding a working engine being built.
In Velozeta’s six stroke engine, a four-stroke was experimentally altered.The first four strokes of this engine are just like a conventional four stroke engine. The additional two strokes are for better scavenging and cooling of the engine which is provided by a secondary air induction system. Reed Valves in the exhaust manifold were used to suck cool air in from the air filter through a secondary air line on the 5th stroke which then expanded due to heat for a second power stroke and then on the 6th stroke a mixture of air and unburnt gases are pushed out through the exhaust valve. The results boasted a reduction in fuel consumption and dramatic reduction in pollution normally up to 65%. Better scavenging and also the timing could be arranged to extract more work per cycle with lower engine temperature.
Im not 100% convinced by the teams results as obviously they want to sell their ideas but for my project I was thinking of basically running this system on a honda gx160. The parts needing modified being the crankshaft and camshaft sprockets the Cam Lobes, the valve timing and a secondary air induction system. If it worked then I could own the worlds most efficent gx160 and I'd have a good project report, if it fails I would still have a decent report/investigation.

 

Brandon1023

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The cooling on an engine was already designed by engineers in order for the engine to run at maximum efficiency. Do you know why an engine needs to be hot? I'll explain. When the engine is cold, the cylinder has shrunk a very small amount (hundredths of an inch). When you fire the engine up, there's more friction between the wall and the piston ring. (this is what makes the engine "inefficient") You're supposed to let the engine "warm up" so the metal can expand, and there's more clearance between the piston ring and cylinder wall. Basically, you want to do the opposite by robbing the gasoline engine of its heat through the use of water. The fan built into the engine is more than sufficient to keep the engine running where it should be (radiator coolant in a car can reach 200*F) and is directly proportional to engine speed. The faster you rev the engine, the faster the fan will spin. Same thing with the chain-driven water pump in my Maxima's V6. The harder I step on it, the faster it circulates coolant through the water jacket. This type of cooling is different than what you have in mind.

Alsooo.. In a 4 stroke engine, only one cycle is where heat is produced: power. The exhaust cycle removes heat as the piston travels up, and the intake stroke draws in cool air from the intake, the compression stroke doesn't produce much heat, because it hasn't detonated the a/f mixture. You see what I'm sayin? There's enough time in between combustion cycles for the engine to remove a good deal of the heat produced.

Finally, intake vacuum tends to draw the air in unevenly, so if you add water to the equation, you get uneven cooling. This can lead to "hotspots" on the cylinder block.
The only thing that makes a machine "inefficient" is friction. You'll always get back less energy than you put in to a machine, because some of it will be lost as heat. Friction is a force that is present on all surfaces, and there's nothing you can do to get rid of it. Even the highest quality motor oil can only coat a metal surface. There's always friction.
 

robbie

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Sorry, I know this is an old thread, but I don't get on the forum so much lately and I just saw it today for the first time.

There are a lot of preconceptions flying around here, mostly based on the idea that the 4-stroke engine as we know it is the pinnacle of design and that's the way it has to be. In fact, the design of engines is based on a variety of factors, not only on performance and efficiency. A lot of it has to do with basic economics, as well as simplicity of design, and what is considered "normal" practice.

Basic thermodynamics tells you that if you can burn yourself on the exhaust pipe, your engine is inefficient. The fact that you can throw a bucket of water on the muffler and create steam means that the engine is capable of greater power output, assuming that a system is designed to harvest the extra energy. Water injection has been used since the 1930s to create momentary extra power to allow overloaded aircraft to take off. It's done with regular 4-stroke engines as well as turbine engines, with little to no alteration to their normal function. Water injection in 4-stroke engines has also been used in race cars.

A frequently ignored fact about the typical internal combustion engine is that a large part of the cooling of an engine is accomplished by dumping extra fuel into the cylinder and not burning it. If you run an engine at the stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 (the ratio where there is exactly the correct amount of oxygen and fuel to completely combine) you will create a lot of power and a lot of heat. An engine can handle this level of heat if it is made of ceramics or fancy alloys, which are expensive. The customary solution to this problem is to use a richer fuel mixture and build the engine from iron and/or aluminum (and size the cylinder and ring to fit at a temperature suitable for these materials). The richer fuel mixture allows enough fuel to make power to move your car down the road, while the extra fuel absorbs the extra heat and dissipates it through thermal expansion. For those who are interested in air pollution, in the old days this unburned fuel used to fly out the exhaust pipe. Nowadays, the extra fuel is burned in the catalytic converter, where it is turned into a huge amount of extremely useless heat.

The concept of water injection addresses the problem of dissipating extra heat from the cylinder. The idea is to use only the fuel that is to be burned, and add water mist to take up the extra heat. The water turns to steam, with an expansion ratio of 1600:1, which is about ten times the expansion ratio of vaporizing unburned gasoline. This means that while burning the same amount of fuel and producing the same amount of heat, replacing the extra gasoline that's used for cooling with water will produce a lot more expansion, meaning that more power is extracted from the fuel that is burned.

This can be done, and has been done, in normal 4 stroke engines. I've never heard of a 6 stroke engine before, but it makes sense that all of that extra heat coming out the exhaust pipe could be harnessed if a mechanical system were designed to capture it.
 

machinist@large

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If the automakers of the world are so casual about fuel consumption, why are a great many of them going to "Stratified Charge" Direct Fuel Injection, as well as almost all aluminum engine block construction?

I think that you will find that the compression ratio of a given engine determines whether or not you might need water injection to curb detonation. The only reason the B29's of WWII needed water injection ON TAKEOFF was because A] they were taking off with the maximum allowed payload, and B] they were flying off bases in the tropics, which meant higher local temps, and correspondingly lower density altitude figures....


The power to displacement #'s of those old war birds are what helped launch the drag racing power races of the 50's, 60's, and beyond.....
 

robbie

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This may be true, but you're ignoring 2 facts. One is that some of your fuel is used to cool the engine, and the other is that exhaust is hot anyway. Engineers are smart guys and they generally do a good job, but there is a lot of fuel wasted in 4 stroke engines.
 

Poboy kartman

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This may be true, but you're ignoring 2 facts. One is that some of your fuel is used to cool the engine, and the other is that exhaust is hot anyway. Engineers are smart guys and they generally do a good job, but there is a lot of fuel wasted in 4 stroke engines.

And you are ignoring 2 cycles. So for this to work, the fuel efficiency gained would have to power an extra 2 revolutions. And fuel is always going to cool the combustion chamber.

But let's look at what we already have: are 4 stroke engines that much more efficient than 2?

I'm not dismissing the idea out of hand, but I think 4 cycle engines are very near top fuel efficiency when coupled with computers, variable timing and super/turbo charging.
 

robbie

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I really don't know how you would build a 6 stroke engine. It seems that it would have to be something completely different from what we know as the 4 stroke engine. All I know is that there is a lot of energy being wasted, and using water to soak it up is the best idea I've heard.
 

machinist@large

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This may be true, but you're ignoring 2 facts. One is that some of your fuel is used to cool the engine, and the other is that exhaust is hot anyway. Engineers are smart guys and they generally do a good job, but there is a lot of fuel wasted in 4 stroke engines.

The cooling effect of the fuel atomizing in the air charge for the cylinder is only considered to affect the density of the charge itself when engineers calculate charge efficiency; with the majority of new vehicles world wide being liquid cooled, the overall thermal control of the engine is controlled by the cooling system. Also, engineers want to keep the internal temperature of the combustion chamber warm, and in a comfort zone temperature wise; excessive heat generates excessive emissions, to cold, and the fuel/air charge doesn't burn completely.

And you are ignoring 2 cycles. So for this to work, the fuel efficiency gained would have to power an extra 2 revolutions. And fuel is always going to cool the combustion chamber.

But let's look at what we already have: are 4 stroke engines that much more efficient than 2?

I'm not dismissing the idea out of hand, but I think 4 cycle engines are very near top fuel efficiency when coupled with computers, variable timing and super/turbo charging.

In a perfect world, under steady state load and speed conditions, where the resonance of the exhaust is spot on, the combustion/ fuel efficiency differences between 2 and 4 strokes would be a really interesting research project.

The problem with both types is that they don't usually work in a perfect world. For a 2 stroke, the weak link is the operating frequency of the expansion chamber. In it's sweet spot, very little fuel escapes into the exhaust; out of it, unspent fuel will exit. For a 4 stroke, the fixed range of the valve timing is the biggest hurdle. Traditionally, a 2 stroke of the same displacement as a 4 stroke usually puts out about double the power.....

I really don't know how you would build a 6 stroke engine. It seems that it would have to be something completely different from what we know as the 4 stroke engine. All I know is that there is a lot of energy being wasted, and using water to soak it up is the best idea I've heard.

There are several different types of 6 stroke engine designs that I've heard of; the one that I know made it to production was the Miller cycle; I believe the Mazda Millenia was the first automotive application.

As for using water to generate steam from the waste heat in an internal combustion engine, you need to understand just how much heat it takes to turn water into steam. Most steam boiler technology peaks around ~10% efficiency; most current automotive 4 strokes burning gasoline are in the ~30% range. I'm not sure about small diesel engines,(pickup size and smaller), but the big ones, like you find in container ships are usually over 50% efficient.

What I'm trying to get across is the fact that you need more energy to generate steam than to run a gas engine; trying to generate steam in the cylinder, for use in the cylinder, is a loosing proposition if your internal combustion engine is actually running properly....
 
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