Coleman CT200U torque Converter

[floert]

Can anyone advise if there is a bolt on torque converter swap for the Coleman CT200U?

Have heard people are using the TAV2 but I am not interested in making major modifications to the bike. Just trying to get around the horrible squealing sound the factory clutch makes at low speed and declines. Maybe just a better clutch than the factory unit?

Thanks to all.

 

[Jfive]

Just buy a tav 2 off eBay for 74.00. That or manual clutch for 190.00ish from 3d motorsports.

 

[itsid]

yes a TAVkit (clone from ebay as mentioned) might be able to help you solve your problem.

but that squealing is likely just your clutch telling you to
a) loose weight
b) add some rpms...

You cannot slowly cruise with a clutch setup too easily without a slipping clutch
and slippage means heat (destroyer of clutches since 1905) and a screaming metal parts sometimes. (squealing much?)

So yeah, best way of fixing that is likely a TAVKit
just remove your clutch and jackshaft together with the backplate and install the TAV in its place.

But be aware:
if you happen to be a 250lbs weightlifter you might just run into the next squealing issue (the belt now slipping due to the excessive load)

Especially since that minibike comes with rather large wheels (19" IIRC) you should at least know that this might cause issues with the original rear sprocket later on..

Best: let us know the exact toothcount of all the sprocket your minibike has now
(there are four sprockets incl the one on the clutch)
and your weight (sorry.. but that might be important)

then we'll be able to give you an idea what rear sprocket you should go with (or if the one you have is already of the correct or at least acceptable size)

'sid

 

[floert]

Super, thanks guys.

weight - 150

Will advise on the tooth count.

Much appreciated.

 

[floert]

...or thinking about a replacement Jackshaft kit that swaps the primary clutch and chain from 40/41 to #35 chain and replace the clutch with a Max Torque brand clutch. Below is a link to the kit.

http://www.shop.hotrodminibike.com/PMR-Jackshaft-Kit-Coleman-CT200U-JSCT200.htm

It's my understanding the TAV2 swap requires me to shim up the engine.

Thoughts?

Thank you.

 

[itsid]

frankly.. that'S BS!

No in fact, that's indeed a nice kit... BUT it's still BS!
even at half the price you should go for the TAV kit
(since it'll add speed and low end torque .. more than you might think)
but at that price.. go and buy TWO Tavkits instead
no you don't need that second one at all.. but at least you have spend about the same

shim up the engine? who said that?!

Anyways, if you think it's the clutch's fault.. buy a new clutch an original Maxtorque
just as you find in this kit is about 25bucks... (and a great piece of hardware at that!)

but if you want to solve your issue... buy a TAVKit on ebay

THIS is the setup you have currently:
KartInfo by kartcalc.net:

[FONT="Verdana"]
[B][U]MINI BIKE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]RW diameter[/I]: [B] 19 in | 48.26 cm[/B]
[I]Total weight[/I]: [B] 275.58 lbs | 125 kg[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]ENGINE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Original HP[/I]: [B] 6.5[/B]
[I]Asummed HP[/I]: [B] ~6.5[/B]
[I]Torque[/I]: [B] 9.48 ft lbf | 12.86 Nm[/B]
[I]RPM[/I]: [B] 3600[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]TRANSMISSION[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Final ratio[/I]: [B] 10:1[/B] (verified!)
assumed: clutch 12->21-jackshaft-12->72 wheel
[/INDENT]
[B][U]PERFORMANCE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Max Wheel Torque[/I]: [B] 94.85 ft lbf | 128.6 Nm[/B]
[I]Top Speed[/I]: [B] 20.35 mph | 32.75 km/h[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]PROBLEMS[/U][/B]
[INDENT][B]You might burn your clutch/belt![/B]
[B]Gear ratio too high![/B]
[I]Suggested final ratio[/I]: [B] at least 10.4:1[/B]
[/INDENT]
[/FONT]

(yes my calculator moans.. 10:1 is kindof a stretch under certain circumstances...

anyways.. this is what you'd get swapping your jackshaftkit with a torque converter:
KartInfo by kartcalc.net:

[FONT="Verdana"]
[B][U]MINI BIKE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]RW diameter[/I]: [B] 19 in | 48.26 cm[/B]
[I]Total weight[/I]: [B] 275.58 lbs | 125 kg[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]ENGINE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Original HP[/I]: [B] 6.5[/B]
[I]Asummed HP[/I]: [B] ~6.5[/B]
[I]Torque[/I]: [B] 9.48 ft lbf | 12.86 Nm[/B]
[I]RPM[/I]: [B] 3600[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]TRANSMISSION[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Final ratio[/I]: [B] 6:1[/B] (no sprocket changed)
assumed: tavkit 12 -> 72 wheel
[I]TC type[/I]: [B]  series 30 6" driven[/B]
[I]Lowest ratio[/I]: [B] 16.2:1[/B]
[I]Highest ratio[/I]: [B] 5.4:1[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]PERFORMANCE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Max Wheel Torque[/I]: [B] 153.66 ft lbf | 208.33 Nm[/B]
[I]Min Wheel Torque[/I]: [B] 51.22 ft lbf | 69.44 Nm[/B]
[I]Top Speed[/I]: [B] 37.68 mph | 60.65 km/h[/B]
[/INDENT]
[/FONT]

NOW, look at the numbers and you can answer your question pretty easily I guess
especially considering the TAVKit can be had for less than 80bucks and the jackshaftkit is 140...

'sid

PS mini bike weight and ratio taken from the user manual:

PPS I wondered about the performance in this review
then I saw that last pic...., see that too?

 

[floert]

Sid, awesome, thanks so much.

Will dig in this weekend and advise sprocket tooth count.

 

[floert]

Sprocket teeth counts (front of bike is positioned to the left):

Short front chain to the left:
left sprocket-10 teeth
right sprocket-20 teeth

Long rear chain to the right:
left sprocket-10 teeth
right sprocket-50 teeth

Please advise if I should purchase different sprockets or if current ones are acceptable. Do you feel the TAV2 kit can be installed without hacking the bike apart?

Please confirm the below link is the proper TAV2 kit to purchase:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Go-Kart-Tor...709860?hash=item463bf65424:g:z2UAAOSww9VXhoGQ

Thanks again for your time guys and please excuse my questions that may seem simple, I am new to this.

 

[itsid]

So its 10 on the clutch, 20 Jackshaft in , 10 Jackshaft out and 50 on the wheel.

You can try with the 50T wheel sprocket.
the TavKit you linked is correct, but use the #40 10T version to have it fit your current setup.
(from what I read you get both sprockets, that's nice)

It's a bit on the rough side to your belt and you'll have lots of speed, but not too much torque gained:
KartInfo by kartcalc.net:

[FONT="Verdana"]
[B][U]MINI BIKE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]RW diameter[/I]: [B] 19 in | 48.26 cm[/B]
[I]Total weight[/I]: [B] 275.58 lbs | 125 kg[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]ENGINE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Original HP[/I]: [B] 6.5[/B]
[I]Asummed HP[/I]: [B] ~6.5[/B]
[I]Torque[/I]: [B] 9.48 ft lbf | 12.86 Nm[/B]
[I]RPM[/I]: [B] 3600[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]TRANSMISSION[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Final ratio[/I]: [B] 5:1[/B]
[I]TC type[/I]: [B]  series 30 6" driven[/B]
[I]Lowest ratio[/I]: [B] 13.5:1[/B]
[I]Highest ratio[/I]: [B] 4.5:1[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]PERFORMANCE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Max Wheel Torque[/I]: [B] 128.05 ft lbf | 173.61 Nm[/B]
[I]Min Wheel Torque[/I]: [B] 42.68 ft lbf | 57.87 Nm[/B]
[I]Top Speed[/I]: [B] 45.22 mph | 72.77 km/h[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]PROBLEMS[/U][/B]
[INDENT][B]You might burn your clutch/belt![/B]
[B]Gear ratio too high![/B]
[I]Suggested final ratio[/I]: [B] at least 5.1:1[/B]
[/INDENT]
[/FONT]

It'll work I guess (the calculator is is very conservative)

but since your troubles started with climbing hills you might want to consider a new wheelsprocket as well.

Personally I'd say keep the wheelsprocket for now and see how it goes;
if you're unhappy with the result or you ruin your belt too quickly..
get a new sprocket (I'd suggest 55T for good torque or 60T for excellent torque [see above])

here's the 55T calculation for comparision:
KartInfo by kartcalc.net:

[FONT="Verdana"]
[B][U]MINI BIKE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]RW diameter[/I]: [B] 19 in | 48.26 cm[/B]
[I]Total weight[/I]: [B] 275.58 lbs | 125 kg[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]ENGINE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Original HP[/I]: [B] 6.5[/B]
[I]Asummed HP[/I]: [B] ~6.5[/B]
[I]Torque[/I]: [B] 9.48 ft lbf | 12.86 Nm[/B]
[I]RPM[/I]: [B] 3600[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]TRANSMISSION[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Final ratio[/I]: [B] 5.5:1[/B]
[I]TC type[/I]: [B]  series 30 6" driven[/B]
[I]Lowest ratio[/I]: [B] 14.85:1[/B]
[I]Highest ratio[/I]: [B] 4.95:1[/B]
[/INDENT]
[B][U]PERFORMANCE[/U][/B]
[INDENT][I]Max Wheel Torque[/I]: [B] 140.85 ft lbf | 190.97 Nm[/B]
[I]Min Wheel Torque[/I]: [B] 46.95 ft lbf | 63.66 Nm[/B]
[I]Top Speed[/I]: [B] 41.11 mph | 66.16 km/h[/B]
[/INDENT]
[/FONT]

So next step: get the Torque converter you linked

'sid

 

[floert]

update

TAV2 installed

Engine needed to be raised ~1.25 inches for clearance of the bottom rear of the TAV2 mounting plate

I am getting quite a bit more vibration than with the centrifugal clutch. Going to try to mount on anti-vibration rubber. Any suggestions?

Unit is working great otherwise, but not seeing the bump in top speed at this point. Any thoughts?

Thank you.

 

[bob58o]

Let's see how you raised the engine???

I opted for a $45 chuck of 1.5" x 4" x 12" 6061 Aluminium.

I wonder what a cheaper, possibly better option might be??

 

[itsid]

vibration.. how?

please remove the belt for a second,
leave the outer sheave (bell and stuff) of the driver off as well but reinstall the bolt with a nice big washer to prevent the inner sheave from falling off..

start the engine and rev up..
any vibration?
reinstall the outer sheave (no belt yet)
and retry.. if you're getting cibrtions now, check your weights;
there's likely somethings wrong with them (let us see)

if not,
lift the rear and spin the wheel as fast as you can you see the driven unit wobbling?
you might have bent the jackshaft by accident (or it came bent *shrugs*)
any you'll likely need to replace either the jackshaft or the whole backplate to fix that.

Anyways..fix the cause, not the effect

'sid

 

[floert]

Let's see how you raised the engine???

I opted for a $45 chuck of 1.5" x 4" x 12" 6061 Aluminium.

I wonder what a cheaper, possibly better option might be??

Bob-I used 1 inch steel square tubing and use a couple washers to raise another ~1/4inch or so for clearance of the bottom TAV mounting plate. Thinking about switching the tubing to 1 inch rubber stoppers.

Sid - thanks as always. I will reply after I can tear into it this weekend.

 

[Poboy kartman]

Well...quit thinking about rubber stoppers.

 

[chancer]

Yep I was gonna say that last night. Dont rubber mount or isolate the engine. The vibration will just cause your chain to constantly come off.
I seen it and heard about it it never works.

 

[floert]

ok, thanks so much for that, will save me a bit of headache!

 

[floert]

Sid, the vibration appears to be the wurst during idle.

I followed your directions and the vibrations remain without the outer sheave and belt and with the outer sheave and belt but they are not horrible. Idle is where they really are, but the handlebars are vibrating no matter what.
weights:


The back circular piece closest to the engine on the driven unit does wobble up and down slightly while spinning the rear wheel. Picture of the piece I am referring to:


I have not seen any real top speed increases with the install of the TAV2. When I lift the rear of the bike and full throttle it, the TAV2 goes to it's full speed/belt stretched/driven coil compressed all the way When I am on it, that is not the case. I weigh ~150 lbs. Thoughts?

Thank you,
Robert

 

[itsid]

That's not too good

If you reve the outer sheave and belt, everything that COULD vibrate is the inner sheave of the driver and the engine itself..

since the driver inner sheave is rather weightless compared to the rest of the moving mass...
well.... the engine is more likely to cause that.
Still to be sure, remove the whole driver assembly to to test again.

But if it's the engine (which of course is vibrating a bit when running) but "a bit" and for sure not more than with a cent clutch installed,
you're basically out of luck..

I notice a minor thing on your weights (or better the springs)
unhook both garter springs then close then back together and snap them back onto the weights;
this time make sure that the hooked ends are exactly 180° apart (one sitting exactly in the center of one of the two weights, the other one in the center of the other weight)
It'll make a very small difference (barely noticeable) but that's how it's supposed to be.

Other than that the weights look good.

The fixed sheave of the driven (the one you point to) should NOT wobble.. not at all!
if it does it could cause vibration.. but NOT at idle (when it's not turning) of course.
So for now we can rule that out

I assume that's the belt that came with the unit, right?
(odd markings... hard to ID it...)
Are you sure it's orientated correctly (flat side goes towards the engine, bevelled side points away from the engine)?
(no, I'm just curious )


Hm, if you cannot get into high ratio with the TAVKit, it might be the engine not having the power needed to do so...
your weight is already within my calculations above (121 lbs the bike.. 150 you.. some fuel... 275 lbs..)

I said, that my calculation is conservative (asking for 5.1:1 instead of the 5.0:1 you have as a gear ratio)
but I expected 6.5hp from the 196cc engine...
the manual states 5.2 horses only... (11Nm instead of 12.6 of torque)

sorry, haven't rechecked that.

So according to my calc you'd need 5.5:1

conveniently you can get past that with just a 9T TC sprocket (as opposed to the 10T you have)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/9T-40-41-Sp...orque-Converter-Driven-TAV2-NEW-/221282516274

Sorry for the inconvenience...
that'd bring you down to 5.56:1 and you should be able to hit ~40mph
you could also change the rear wheel sprocket if you prefere (55 or 56 teeth)
to do the same.
that should provide the ratio needed to allow the engine to fully rev up.

(frankly.. 5:1 should be hard on the belt.. but still work)

So maybe there is something wrong with the engine.. either it doesn't have it's full potential for some reason (carb clogged or unadjusted... compression loss.. foul plug.. IDK)
or your throttle cable doesn't open the butterfly all the way (pinched cable, too much slack *shrugs*)

I'd say get the spark plug out and check it's colour.
(should be light tan.. fancy speaking "latte macchiato"..)
much lighter and you need more fuel, darker and you have too much fuel in the mix.
If that's reasonable in color with the engine off, remove the air filter (so that you can see the butterfly moving)
twist the throttle all the way... and then see if you can open the butterfly even more manually... if so, readjust your throttle cable.

None of that costs any money (nor is very time consuming either)
So I'd check that first before I'd buy a new sprocket.
If it still doesn't rev up under load you can still order a sprocket knowing the engine is perfectly okay.

When in doubt, post pics (or a video might even be better here)
And we'll be helping you with a few sets of trained or at least well rested eyes

'sid

 

[floert]

video of the handlebar vibrating at idle:
https://youtu.be/tPVwfnVtkc0
normal? Seems excessive to me. Is there a way to adjust the idle revs?

Fixed sheave of the TAV2 wobble: https://youtu.be/iQSku-o9M_Q

Belt came with it.

Regarding the performance issues, I adjusted the throttle cable and that was it. It is a completely different bike now. I actually had to adjust it down after my initial adjustment proved to be too much.

 

[Poboy kartman]

Was at Wal-Mart today and saw those mini-bikes for sale.