Coleman CT200U-EX

[Rat]

Got the Hemi valve cover patched up enough to stop leaking with some JBweld steel stick.
It really scoots right along without the governor and I haven't even pushed it hard enough to float the valves yet.

If I dropped the centrifugal (10t) and jackshaft (10:1 currently with a 50t on wheel) swapped a 212 crankshaft in for the 3/4" PTO (assuming the taper on the one I have will match up to the current flywheel)

What gains in top speed could I expect from 5:1 behind a 30series?

I'm well aware I would need a engine lift plate for TC backplate clearance

 

[panchothedog]

I'm guessing because I have never done a head to head comparison between clutch and torque converter. Everything that I have read says top speed will be greater with centrifugal due to the overdrive of the TC dragging rpm's down once fully engaged. In theory makes complete sense. I'm sure you're aware of all that can be done to the TC with weights, different springs, and engagement hole location. With the exception of being on a smooth and level track, I've yet to own a kart or bike that I wouldn't gladly give up a couple of mph for the driveability and better acceleration offered by the TC.

 

[Rat]

I'm guessing because I have never done a head to head comparison between clutch and torque converter. Everything that I have read says top speed will be greater with centrifugal due to the overdrive of the TC dragging rpm's down once fully engaged.

I've seen that a lot as well as experienced it first hand. My 208 is a mild build that has no shortage of torque, but if I flog it and let the 30 do it's thing I might see 6k on the tach briefly but it always pulled down to the 4800-5200 range on a level stretch (theres not many and none are very long)

It is my understanding though that this is a quirk specific to the 30 due to the asymetric belt... I do not know if that is accurate. I'd go with a 20 series but they range from being as much as a 40 series to WTAF!?!?!

In theory makes complete sense. I'm sure you're aware of all that can be done to the TC with weights, different springs, and engagement hole location.

indeed but I know tossing a yellow on the driven is quite possibly the worst "upgrade" if you're not a flatlander. I don't have any personal gruge on the engagement/stall speed of the stock zinc weights and whatever the hell those non coded springs are (black?) I get initial engagement right around 22/2300 without doing anything but sticking them on

With the exception of being on a smooth and level track, I've yet to own a kart or bike that I wouldn't gladly give up a couple of mph for the driveability and better acceleration offered by the TC.

I'm not necessarily looking for more speed or acceleration, but I am looking for more reliable. Being the current China Max is having some functionality issues I'm weighing my options which is rip everything down for a TC, or get a genuine Torque Max. Due to the necessary add-ons to use a TC (Riser plate, new drive chain) a Max will be the cheaper option.

Of course taking the current one off, Cleaning it out, and maybe nipping a coil or two from the garter(s?) would likely be sufficient... it did sit in a barn for quite a while and never really got serviced as far as I can tell with the chinese spark plug I replaced, and gross black oil I changed out...at least that wasn't metallic charcoal instead.

 

[Rat]

With the exception of being on a smooth and level track, I've yet to own a kart or bike that I wouldn't gladly give up a couple of mph for the driveability and better acceleration offered by the TC.

It occurred to me another factor to consider...

While my 208 bike is a built engine, it is a bigger and heavier ride, has taller tires, and 5.4:1 behind a 30 series... where the Coleman is smaller, much lighter, smaller tires, and swapping the jackshaft would bring it down from 10:1 to 5:1 (5.5:1 if I used a 9t) so there is room for both nasty acceleration gains and an unreasonable top speed gain.

I've read too much conflicting mixed information at this point, and have found the only common factoisin it all is massive acceleration gains out of the hole, and greatly improved incline handling without lugging way down.

I'm no stranger to cutting a few inches of the bottom curve of a backplate to fit them.

As long as one doesn't take more than absolutely necessary it's not a problem even as much as 1/3" up into the lower jackshaft carrier buttresses... so a riser engine mount plate is not even mandatory really although there is a latteral bar the OE jackshaft plate bolts to as stabilizer.

 

[panchothedog]

There are gusset like castings on the back side of the converter plate that help strengthen the boss that the bearing rides in. I wouldn't cut into that area.

 

[Rat]

There are gusset like castings on the back side of the converter plate that help strengthen the boss that the bearing rides in. I wouldn't cut into that area.

I'm aware, by definition they are buttresses and clipping a little off the ends of them is best avoided but a little bit is of no consequence.

 

[Rat]

I got to looking at the jackshaft plate on it and compared it to my other 2 TC set ups... I think the CT200U-EX is larger than the 200U and other 200U-XX bikes. I think a TC might fit without a Riser or cutting the backplate.

I'd need to cut the packplate support tab off the frame but that's about it best I can tell.

Truth be told the Ducar 212 is too much engine for the bike I stuck it on...that thing is just plain scary. Might be fun to directly swap the 2 engines and ther respective drivelines
(Ducar 212 with TC for 196cc and jackshaft maybe clutchonly since that already has a jackshaft set up behing the TC)

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

Have access to a mill?
Couple few thou off the head does wonders.

 

[Rat]

Have access to a mill?
Couple few thou off the head does wonders.

No I don't. The stock head is going back once I get the valve seals to stop the mosquito fogger effect and plug fouling

 

[Rat]

The Hemi head has pretty chewed up exhaust stud threads so I put the stock head back on and just wow... it really runs like garbage now.

Im seriously leaning towards tossing the Ducar 212 on it TC and all more than before.

 

[Rat]

It runs fine with the gas topped up... I officially HATE the fuel tank on that thing because once it's into the bottom 1/8 it starts running like trash... it wont run at all leaned on its stand with the last 1/16

 

[BaconBitRacing]

It runs fine with the gas topped up... I officially HATE the fuel tank on that thing because once it's into the bottom 1/8 it starts running like trash... it wont run at all leaned on its stand with the last 1/16

These dadbum engineers don't know how to make anything that works...

 

[Rat]

These dadbum engineers don't know how to make anything that works...

The funny thing is I got the oil leak through the valve guide to go away... quite purely by accident.

All I did was clean the chamber, the exhaust port, the valves, and then kinda sorta lapped them with some Fast Orange hand cleaner...it has pumice so why not lol. It went from carbon crusted hell to looking newarly brand new.

I'm still going to get a pair of new seals, but I found it amusing that contrary to expectation is wasn't smoking after putting the OE head back on.

 

[panchothedog]

Great idea about the fast orange. Has the grit to do the grinding as well as cleaning it up at the same time. Something to think about for future use.

 

[Rat]

Great idea about the fast orange. Has the grit to do the grinding as well as cleaning it up at the same time. Something to think about for future use.

I used my thumb along side the edge of the valve seat to cause the excess to pile up then get rolled back under.
I only opted to try it because I inverted the head, filled the chamber full of old oil, and left it for a leak down... the intake was still clean, but the exhaust had a dribble.

It didn't seem like it was necessary to go all out with a lapping paste or anything fancy, I'm actually a little surprised it worked as well as it did although I'm sure all I did was clean off some hard carbon more than actually lap the valve into the seat.

After giving it a spin for a few minutes with a chunk of fuel line shoved on the valve stem and over a screwdriver bit shoved in the drill... retested and got nothing past the seat.

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

Use a thinner liquid when you do that. Solvent or lacquer thinner.

 

[Rat]

Use a thinner liquid when you do that. Solvent or lacquer thinner.

I said it was old oil, not sludge. It was "watered down" with some old gas so it was quite thin.

 

[Rat]

I did it...
I did that thing I probably shouldn't have done.


It is Now a 212 Ducar Hemi Powered Coleman CT200U-EX that even at 5:1 has more than enough Get the F★ck lost to be be extremely dangerous. The front wheel has ZERO trouble reaching for the sky even at a 10 mph roll.

I haven't wound it all the way up to top end yet... but it hauls.
Needs a little bit of adjusting here and there but it proves the engine had no business on the build I plopped it on initially... I will be putting the 196 in its place.

 

[Rat]

Ducar 212 disguised as a Hisun 196

Its a fun little bike now... scary AF, but fun.

The answer to "Does a TC give better acceleration, or or a higher top speed" is: Both!

TC naturally accelerates better than a Hilliard, but whel you cut the final drive ratio in half by removing the jackshaft assembly (in this case 10:1 became 5:1) You automaticacally gain top speed potential.