Butt Welding

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Benjo

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I have heard more than once that you shouldn't butt weld frames together.

I thinks its perfectly fine to butt weld frames, as long as the steel has been correctly prepared it should be fine.

What do you guys think, is it safe?
 

Badot

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I feel it can be safe if done properly.

On the other hand though, frame members tend to carry a very large amount of load along their surface compared to most other parts. Little cracks in welds happen. Stress fractures happen. Personally, I don't trust my welding enough to be willing to take the risk, even if I do tend to overbuild.

If I needed to do something similar I would find something that sleeves the parts to be butt welded for additional strength.
 

Benjo

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well i thought i'd try it out.
I preped the steel and arc welded it. I smashed it will a big hammer until it had a 90* bend in it, then I bent it back. it then snapped in half.







 

Doc Sprocket

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IF it is done by a competent welder, it would probably be fine. That said, many DIY'ers are adequate to poor. You (should) know your own skill level. Bear in mind that a frame failure at speed is a lousy way to meet your maker. Best bet is like Bighead says- either an external sleeve, or an internal slug, plug-welded. One other thought here- the odds that the frame member will end up dead straight are greatly increased by using a sleeve or plug- the longer the better. With a butt-weld (insert joke here) you're not only at the mercy of your cut angles, there's also heat deflection from welding.
 

robbie

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Heat deflection is minimized by tack welding little spots along the joint first, then filling in. But it's true that your parts will be better with some kind of bridge across the joint.

I built a giant truss out of drill stem pipe to hold up my shop roof. It has a clear span of 48 feet, and the joints are all butt welded. But it's easy to get a great weld on drill stem pipe, so I don't have a problem with it. Getting a good weld with a flux core wire welder on thin wall tubing is a lot harder to do, so I don't trust my welds as much as I trust the ones holding up the roof.
 

pipehack

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Tubing should never EVER be butt welded. A sleeve should be made the inside diameter of the tubing before it is welded. Plug welds should be made to secure the sleeve and then the tubing welded all the way around. It's your safety. Butt weld it if you want. It will crack. Do some research.
 

Benjo

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Tubing should never EVER be butt welded. A sleeve should be made the inside diameter of the tubing before it is welded. Plug welds should be made to secure the sleeve and then the tubing welded all the way around. It's your safety. Butt weld it if you want. It will crack. Do some research.

This is what i'm talking about. Why do you think its a bad idea?
I have seen butt welds pressure tested to more than 10000psi, they haven't failed.
 

fowler

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i dont see an issue
if u get it right the first time

how do u think they weld up chassis cracks
or cracks in machinery frames

in theory u should be able to cut somthing and weld it so the weld is the strogest part
there is more material where the weld is basically making the metal a thicker peice

if u add too much heat and ruin the strength of the maetal
or not enough and have rubbish penatration then it will crack ]

but other wize it is skill limited

personly i still butt weld it then put some right angine on the corners or somthing as i dont trust my skills
 

pipehack

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Chassis cracks a fixed by either replacing the section of tubing. Which is what I would do or by sleeving. I wouldn't go near any shop that would butt weld tubing. Butt welding might work I just wouldn't do it on anything I'm putting my a$$ in.
 

Doc Sprocket

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Generally, chassis cracks are "properly" fixed by first welding the crack, and then gusseting, plating, or sleeving the repair area. Again, if done properly, I think it would work under the right circumstances. But for the purposes of this forum, I would not suggest it.
 

OzFab

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This is what i'm talking about. Why do you think its a bad idea?
I have seen butt welds pressure tested to more than 10000psi, they haven't failed.

The problem is not the amount of pressure exerted on a weld, it's the number of times that pressure is exerted. A stress crack won't appear after one test, they appear over time. Also, 9 times out of 10 it's not the weld that cracks but the area around the weld due to the molecular change that takes place as a result of the welding process.

In short, a sleeve or slug is a reeeally good idea as it transfers the stress away from the butt weld
 

ryf

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I am a few days late on this, but for those of you who can't trust your butt welds, do you trust your welds that are welded to the side of another tube?

i am in the middle, aesthetically, sleeving/slugging is good it makes the joint better lined up, if your welds are so so it does give you more welding surface, which would in the end be stronger usually.

that said, you need to look at the part, where it is, and what its load forces are to know if it makes a difference. in general its easier to sleeve or slug it than worry about it.

I would pose the statement like this. if you dont know enough about metal working, chassis design, and load dynamics to not know the answer for each joint that your welding, then sleeve it to save you the hassle of being wrong. if you are lengthening or widening a frame, those joints should be slugged/sleeved if for no other reason that to keep it as straight as possible and prevent heat warp. one thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that a fair amounth of strength in a weld comes from the mound of added metal above and around the joint, it acts as a basic gusset, and is WHY people say the weld is stronger than the base metal, since its usually thicker at the joint, so IF YOU ARE GOING TO GRIND A WELD SMOOTH YOU SHOULD SLUG IT.

slugging is generally putting a rod or tube inside the project tube, looks better generally and harder to find once ground.
 

only126db

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I dont know alot about welding but couldnt you cut a little extra frame (1/4"-3/8") use a smaller diameter inner tube to actually get 3 points of weld on the repair area (hitting the inner tubing and both frame butts).

then grind smooth and have a larger piece of tubing to go over the frame and weld that which is two more areas of weld?

i would think if you weld decent that would be pretty darn strong and i bet stronger than original.

i myself would probably have the pieces pretty long also to distribute any stress along the rest of the frame.
 

devino246

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I dont know alot about welding but couldnt you cut a little extra frame (1/4"-3/8") use a smaller diameter inner tube to actually get 3 points of weld on the repair area (hitting the inner tubing and both frame butts).

then grind smooth and have a larger piece of tubing to go over the frame and weld that which is two more areas of weld?

i would think if you weld decent that would be pretty darn strong and i bet stronger than original.

i myself would probably have the pieces pretty long also to distribute any stress along the rest of the frame.

That's a bit overkill. Best method would be a plug with about 3/8" between the two tubes and the edges of the tubes ground at an angle. You want to be welding the two separate tubes to the plug, as well as to each other. It will take several passes to fill in the entire area. Just be sure to remove any flux from the weld before going over it. This is essentially the same back strap technique used to join much thicker pieces of metal in structural applications. You can also grind the weld flat without loosing strength.

 

landuse

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I dont know alot about welding but couldnt you cut a little extra frame (1/4"-3/8") use a smaller diameter inner tube to actually get 3 points of weld on the repair area (hitting the inner tubing and both frame butts).

then grind smooth and have a larger piece of tubing to go over the frame and weld that which is two more areas of weld?

i would think if you weld decent that would be pretty darn strong and i bet stronger than original.

i myself would probably have the pieces pretty long also to distribute any stress along the rest of the frame.

I have done this when welding up my minibike. I used an original pit bike frame which I chopped in half. You can see in the pic how I slid the larger square tubing over the original frame, and welded up a few holes that I had drilled initially. This gave me a few points of strength.

I wouldn't now go and weld a larger piece on. Like devino says, I think that is a bit of an overkill
 

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Shrek

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But welding is done all the time on C channel and boxed frames. A slash or Z cut is preferred to increase weld surface and proper fish plating is used on either of the load bearing sides. To slug the tube is not necessary if it's done correctly. And open root weld with a backer as mentioned above would be prefered as well.
 

DaiSan76

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Here is a butt joint I TIG welded and did a bend test on.
 

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