Bringing back the 1972-74 Muskin Dune Cat ... suspension ideas welcome!
- Thread starter 2S Keisler
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2S Keisler
The Dune Cat
2S Keisler
The Dune Cat
Stretched Dune Cats ... + 10inches
Hi,
I have received some requests for the stretched version. Tomorrow 5-23-13 I will meet with the mold maker to discuss prepping and mold costs.
I would like to get 10 orders to make these, and I have potentially 3 at this moment. The price would be just $50 more than the standard version listed on the eBay Store post link above.
Please contact me by PM, email or phone 865-566-0314.
The frames for these are really simple and anyone here should be able to make it with some dimensions I will provide.
Moderators, please PM me if you prefer I post this in the Classifieds.
Hi,
I have received some requests for the stretched version. Tomorrow 5-23-13 I will meet with the mold maker to discuss prepping and mold costs.
I would like to get 10 orders to make these, and I have potentially 3 at this moment. The price would be just $50 more than the standard version listed on the eBay Store post link above.
Please contact me by PM, email or phone 865-566-0314.
The frames for these are really simple and anyone here should be able to make it with some dimensions I will provide.
Moderators, please PM me if you prefer I post this in the Classifieds.
I don't mind this being here, but you might get more interest if it is in the For Sale section
2S Keisler
The Dune Cat
Picked up a Murray Kilowatt adult suspension kart for benchmarking the Dune Cat
Hey All,
Yesterday I picked up a nice clean complete Murray Kilowatt suspension offroad kart. I think it will serve well to give me some direction on the suspension design for the Dune Cat.
Thie machine has a unique coilover shock rear swing arm design. It also has a lower a-arm coilover shock front. I think it can provide a basis for a chassis design for the Dune Cat.
Additionally, it uses a Max Torque drive/driven unit setup for the transmission. I like this arrangement better than the TAV Comet because it has fewer parts, less weight, more rigid, and one less alignment to maintain (tav to jackshaft).
I was going to do a Chop, Cut, Rebuild on it to fit the Dune Cat, but decided to use it for the Carter Bros Monster Jeep instead as the dimensions darn near perfect for adaptation.
See pictures attached of the Murray Kilowatt.
Hey All,
Yesterday I picked up a nice clean complete Murray Kilowatt suspension offroad kart. I think it will serve well to give me some direction on the suspension design for the Dune Cat.
Thie machine has a unique coilover shock rear swing arm design. It also has a lower a-arm coilover shock front. I think it can provide a basis for a chassis design for the Dune Cat.
Additionally, it uses a Max Torque drive/driven unit setup for the transmission. I like this arrangement better than the TAV Comet because it has fewer parts, less weight, more rigid, and one less alignment to maintain (tav to jackshaft).
I was going to do a Chop, Cut, Rebuild on it to fit the Dune Cat, but decided to use it for the Carter Bros Monster Jeep instead as the dimensions darn near perfect for adaptation.
See pictures attached of the Murray Kilowatt.
2S Keisler
The Dune Cat
Update with Wilwood Hydraulic brakes
Hi All,
It's been a while but I've been continually making progress on the Dune Cat frame/chassis.
Attached is a pic of a couple of frames underway. I am running 1.25inch x .083inch wall which is larger than stock.
The engine/diff housing CAD design is done, and 3 housings have been CNC water-jet cut and welded. I will post up pics later this week.
Attached are a couple of pics of the Wilwood hydraulic disc brakes I've adapted. As it stands now, I am running drum on the front, and disc on the rear. I need to do some trials and see if the Wilwood hydraulic rear is adequate to handle all of the braking. The hydraulic master connects to the pedal using a heim bearing, and is adjustable for stroke.
One of the things I am looking at is adding a hand parking brake using late model auto parts that are inexpensive and plentiful from salvage yards. Another simple choice is to add a push-pull brake line isolator like used in sand rails.
Should have some finished complete karts within the next couple weeks.
Hi All,
It's been a while but I've been continually making progress on the Dune Cat frame/chassis.
Attached is a pic of a couple of frames underway. I am running 1.25inch x .083inch wall which is larger than stock.
The engine/diff housing CAD design is done, and 3 housings have been CNC water-jet cut and welded. I will post up pics later this week.
Attached are a couple of pics of the Wilwood hydraulic disc brakes I've adapted. As it stands now, I am running drum on the front, and disc on the rear. I need to do some trials and see if the Wilwood hydraulic rear is adequate to handle all of the braking. The hydraulic master connects to the pedal using a heim bearing, and is adjustable for stroke.
One of the things I am looking at is adding a hand parking brake using late model auto parts that are inexpensive and plentiful from salvage yards. Another simple choice is to add a push-pull brake line isolator like used in sand rails.
Should have some finished complete karts within the next couple weeks.
Attachments
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New Frames Underway_1small.jpg -
Dunecat_hydraulics1.jpg -
Dunecat_hydraulics2.jpg
firemanjim
Just kartin' around....
Uhhh. I dont think the eBay link worked right. I could not find your karts..... would like more info.
zbuck
New member
Same here. All tranny parts, no kart parts shown. Would also like more info on the kart parts. Bodies look great and nice job on the rest of the kart.
They're looking great,
but may I ask you something,
I am trying to make a fiberglass body myself
with all the materials (protobody, mold, actual body) I end up spending less than 500
(If I don't break anything in the process)
And that's calculated for making exactly ONE body.
Every other body would end up being around 150-200 max.
(all unpainted)
So I have the strong feeling I am missing something important in my plans.
Would you help me out and point me to what I may have missed to consider?
Thank you
'sid
OzFab
Well-known member
Time & paint; metallic paint is expensive...
2S Keisler
The Dune Cat
OK, the listing ran out so I renewed it. You should be able to find it on eBay now.
Regarding the component parts, what parts you are interested in?
My target is to provide a brand new bare frame and fully loaded frame with the improved pedal quadrants and quick release pedals. You can see the pedals slide into the pedal mounts. I will get some pics up of the different pedal versions I came up with. I have extended pedals w/ pads for my girls, and straight up pedals w/pads for me and adults. Makes it easy to quickly adjust for different riders.
Once I get these first two units done, I will put together a list of parts/assemblies.
Regarding the component parts, what parts you are interested in?
My target is to provide a brand new bare frame and fully loaded frame with the improved pedal quadrants and quick release pedals. You can see the pedals slide into the pedal mounts. I will get some pics up of the different pedal versions I came up with. I have extended pedals w/ pads for my girls, and straight up pedals w/pads for me and adults. Makes it easy to quickly adjust for different riders.
Once I get these first two units done, I will put together a list of parts/assemblies.
2S Keisler
The Dune Cat
'sid,
Like Fabroman said, paint materials add cost.
We are using clear gel coat, metallic big flake suspended in clear gel coat, base color gel coat, then laying the body up with t 3 layers of hand laid long strand glass. For the body in white, it gets white gel coat instead of the color/flake/clear.
2S Keisler
The Dune Cat
Motor & Diff Housing - a nice part for builders
This combination Motor & Differential Housing is a nifty little part I have developed as an improved version of the original to accommodate hydraulic brakes.
This Housing is the building block of the Dune Cat drivetrain, as well as the 3 wheelers trikes HPE Muskin made.
The Housing provides several functions:
1. baseplate for engine. These are the 4 slotted holes on top.
2. jackshaft bearing & shaft mount with sliding adjustment for chain tension to the axle sprocket. These are the 2 oval holes plus thru bolt holes on the left and right side. The captured ball bearing mounts to a plate that has slotted holes that slides front to rear. When you get the tension right, you tighten the bolts on left and right side, keeping the jack shaft parallel to the axle shaft. I later plan to add for the cast iron pillow block bearings on a jack plate with external adjusters. These bearings have longer shaft support and built in collars with 2 set screws each so there are fewer parts and better shaft rigidity.
3. axle shaft bearing hanger. I used the 2 hole configuration that accepts the el cheapo stamped flange bearing retainers, and the better cast iron pillow block (which is what I am using as seen in the pictures from earlier in the thread).
4. Wilwood hydraulic Jr. Kart caliper mounting. I placed this on both side to give the flexibility to run 1 inner on the diff mounted rotor, or 2 calipers - 1 per axle shaft - mounted on the outer side of the housing. This is for 8 inch rotor.
The front and rear of the Housing has cutouts for the frame tube. This makes it easier to attach and align.
This Housing is designed to accept the Comet and Peerless brands of Differential. It will also work just fine with solid axles.
This Housing can be easily retrofitted to nearly any solid axle kart running a horizontal shaft small engine (Honda, Briggs, Techumseh, Honda clones, etc).
This Housing can be used as the basis for an Independent Rear Suspension like used on some of the RTS trikes of the 1970s. To do this, you would use the Comet or Peerless Diff, and cut off the axles, within several inches of the housing. Then mount a U-Joint coupling or CV axle flange, axle, and swing arm(s), upright with axle bearing and end flanges.
Adding a Differential in place of the solid axle is one of the best steering/handling improvements you can make. It eliminates the push and scrub action of a solid axle, thus the kart is easier to control, to turn a tighter circle, to prevent tearing up the yard during turns and to increase tire tread life.
Adding a Comet CV transmission in place of a racing clutch is one of the best driving improvements because it provides a 3:1 low gear for 3X more torque where you need it from a launch and also hill climb. Then as the belt/pulley automatically adjusts it lowers the engine rpm and provides 1:1 or 1:0.9 final ratio. The 0.9 final ratio is a 10% overdrive, lowering engine rpm while providing higher top end speed. I am running the larger 7inch driven pulley which gives even more starting torque, and a 1:1 final ratio. My opinion is that a fun kart needs more torque and less top end speed.
When running a CV trans like the Comet, this Housing allows for a lighter and much more rigid mounting arrangement than the TAV style. You only need the Driver and Driven unit - no backing plate, no secondary sprocket, no secondary shaft/bearings - and the result is much quieter operation due to elimination of the vibrating back plate and the secondary chain noise. The belt life is also better because the driven unit stays in alignment on the rigid jack shaft.
This combination Motor & Differential Housing is a nifty little part I have developed as an improved version of the original to accommodate hydraulic brakes.
This Housing is the building block of the Dune Cat drivetrain, as well as the 3 wheelers trikes HPE Muskin made.
The Housing provides several functions:
1. baseplate for engine. These are the 4 slotted holes on top.
2. jackshaft bearing & shaft mount with sliding adjustment for chain tension to the axle sprocket. These are the 2 oval holes plus thru bolt holes on the left and right side. The captured ball bearing mounts to a plate that has slotted holes that slides front to rear. When you get the tension right, you tighten the bolts on left and right side, keeping the jack shaft parallel to the axle shaft. I later plan to add for the cast iron pillow block bearings on a jack plate with external adjusters. These bearings have longer shaft support and built in collars with 2 set screws each so there are fewer parts and better shaft rigidity.
3. axle shaft bearing hanger. I used the 2 hole configuration that accepts the el cheapo stamped flange bearing retainers, and the better cast iron pillow block (which is what I am using as seen in the pictures from earlier in the thread).
4. Wilwood hydraulic Jr. Kart caliper mounting. I placed this on both side to give the flexibility to run 1 inner on the diff mounted rotor, or 2 calipers - 1 per axle shaft - mounted on the outer side of the housing. This is for 8 inch rotor.
The front and rear of the Housing has cutouts for the frame tube. This makes it easier to attach and align.
This Housing is designed to accept the Comet and Peerless brands of Differential. It will also work just fine with solid axles.
This Housing can be easily retrofitted to nearly any solid axle kart running a horizontal shaft small engine (Honda, Briggs, Techumseh, Honda clones, etc).
This Housing can be used as the basis for an Independent Rear Suspension like used on some of the RTS trikes of the 1970s. To do this, you would use the Comet or Peerless Diff, and cut off the axles, within several inches of the housing. Then mount a U-Joint coupling or CV axle flange, axle, and swing arm(s), upright with axle bearing and end flanges.
Adding a Differential in place of the solid axle is one of the best steering/handling improvements you can make. It eliminates the push and scrub action of a solid axle, thus the kart is easier to control, to turn a tighter circle, to prevent tearing up the yard during turns and to increase tire tread life.
Adding a Comet CV transmission in place of a racing clutch is one of the best driving improvements because it provides a 3:1 low gear for 3X more torque where you need it from a launch and also hill climb. Then as the belt/pulley automatically adjusts it lowers the engine rpm and provides 1:1 or 1:0.9 final ratio. The 0.9 final ratio is a 10% overdrive, lowering engine rpm while providing higher top end speed. I am running the larger 7inch driven pulley which gives even more starting torque, and a 1:1 final ratio. My opinion is that a fun kart needs more torque and less top end speed.
When running a CV trans like the Comet, this Housing allows for a lighter and much more rigid mounting arrangement than the TAV style. You only need the Driver and Driven unit - no backing plate, no secondary sprocket, no secondary shaft/bearings - and the result is much quieter operation due to elimination of the vibrating back plate and the secondary chain noise. The belt life is also better because the driven unit stays in alignment on the rigid jack shaft.
Attachments
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Motor_Diff_Housings1.jpg -
Motor_Diff_Housings2.jpg -
Motor_Diff_Housings3.jpg -
Motor Housing.jpg
jonboy
Member
Man that is looking great keep up with the pics I would love to have one of these.
machinist@large
Active member
Nice!!!
This thread is great for a couple of reasons; 1] you're bringing a really cool product back to life, and 2] you are more than willing to show where/ how your #'s add up for pricing. I work in industry, so I can see exactly where you are coming from with your pricing/ numbers. Contrary to the beliefs of some people, just because it can be built for (? price) by country "X" doesn't mean that they can claim that you should be selling your product for less because, and I quote "You should be cheaper; you don't have international shipping charges!!!".
That quote was from mid 2001; someone showed up at the shop looking for a custom "Hi Po" exhaust for his moped (that's right, his MOPED). I just caught a few bits and pieces of the conversation; needless to say, my boss pretty much washed his hands of that person, and told them to try the welding shop down the block.....
Don't let anyone get you down, if they think they can get someone else to sell them a comparable product for pennies on the dollar, let them go. If you are playing above board with you costs,etc. then you have nothing to regret; and if someone begrudges you a profit for your work, send them down the road.
I really like the way this project is going; let me get out of the hole I'm in, and offer a body sized for us "Plus Sized" guys, I'll be in touch. That body has got to be one of the sexyest I have seen for a kart......
This thread is great for a couple of reasons; 1] you're bringing a really cool product back to life, and 2] you are more than willing to show where/ how your #'s add up for pricing. I work in industry, so I can see exactly where you are coming from with your pricing/ numbers. Contrary to the beliefs of some people, just because it can be built for (? price) by country "X" doesn't mean that they can claim that you should be selling your product for less because, and I quote "You should be cheaper; you don't have international shipping charges!!!".
That quote was from mid 2001; someone showed up at the shop looking for a custom "Hi Po" exhaust for his moped (that's right, his MOPED). I just caught a few bits and pieces of the conversation; needless to say, my boss pretty much washed his hands of that person, and told them to try the welding shop down the block.....
Don't let anyone get you down, if they think they can get someone else to sell them a comparable product for pennies on the dollar, let them go. If you are playing above board with you costs,etc. then you have nothing to regret; and if someone begrudges you a profit for your work, send them down the road.
I really like the way this project is going; let me get out of the hole I'm in, and offer a body sized for us "Plus Sized" guys, I'll be in touch. That body has got to be one of the sexyest I have seen for a kart......
I'm sorry, if you were referring to my question above; I never meant to tell anyone to sell his product for less, I was afraid I left an important point out of MY calculation.
Obviously (now
) it's time (I stopped paying myself along time ago, I just couldn't afford me working for myself anymore ) and as mentioned that painted gelcoat.
I expect it'll be something about a full week for the proto & mold and at least a day for the body (plus painting)
This IS a great product, that's the reason why I am following this project in the first place.
Sorry that I didn't start with an appreciation here, that was unkind.
Didn't want to alienate someone.
'sid
Obviously (now
) it's time (I stopped paying myself along time ago, I just couldn't afford me working for myself anymore ) and as mentioned that painted gelcoat.I expect it'll be something about a full week for the proto & mold and at least a day for the body (plus painting)
This IS a great product, that's the reason why I am following this project in the first place.
Sorry that I didn't start with an appreciation here, that was unkind.
Didn't want to alienate someone.
'sid
I'm sorry, if you were referring to my question above; I never meant to tell anyone to sell his product for less, I was afraid I left an important point out of MY calculation.
Obviously (now
I expect it'll be something about a full week for the proto & mold and at least a day for the body (plus painting)
This IS a great product, that's the reason why I am following this project in the first place.
Sorry that I didn't start with an appreciation here, that was unkind.
Didn't want to alienate someone.
'sid
It's all good. I think we all knew what you meant
2S Keisler
The Dune Cat
^^ that's right!
IronSpadeCycles
Racer of all kinds
Wow, I'd really like to see the +10 inch body and I would be very interested in one. Sorry this is my first post, I really did just stumble onto this forum. I've been looking for a cool mini Manx style glass body for a full suspension kart/buggy I designed with a 2 stroke shifter engine and Fox 2.0 shocks. It would have a cage and seat belt for safety but still be easy to get in and out of.
Shafi, that build table with the square holes looks very much like one in the Framecrafter's shop in Union, IL. Man I'd really like to have one of those for my shop.
Anyway, keep up the good work. I'm digging it. Talk soon, Travis
Shafi, that build table with the square holes looks very much like one in the Framecrafter's shop in Union, IL. Man I'd really like to have one of those for my shop.
Anyway, keep up the good work. I'm digging it. Talk soon, Travis
IronSpadeCycles
Racer of all kinds
Sorry to hijack the thread, I'll make it short
Did you take pictures, or start a build thread for the body? I have a degree in Industrial Design and have done many custom prototype mockups. I can give you suggestions but I need to know what your doing already, what kind of work area you have, materials you have to work with, etc...
Pictures are worth much more than a paragraph. Talk soon, Travis
Did you take pictures, or start a build thread for the body? I have a degree in Industrial Design and have done many custom prototype mockups. I can give you suggestions but I need to know what your doing already, what kind of work area you have, materials you have to work with, etc...
Pictures are worth much more than a paragraph. Talk soon, Travis
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