stephenm2682
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hi, which welder should i get. mig or arc. what ampage is best for all round performance. got chance of either 40-140 or 180 stick welder, any good for thin & thick like 1.5" pipe or tube?
arc or mig
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modelengineer
Lord of the noise
You can infinitely adjust the amperage on welders, so a more powerful welder will do everything that the less powerful welder can, and more.
Mig is more expensive to buy and run, but it is quicker and easier to weld things, and it is easy to get good looking welds.
Arc is much cheaper to buy and run, can take longer to weld things if you suck (like me), welds can look bad, and it requires MUCH more practice to become skilled at it.
Mig is more expensive to buy and run, but it is quicker and easier to weld things, and it is easy to get good looking welds.
Arc is much cheaper to buy and run, can take longer to weld things if you suck (like me), welds can look bad, and it requires MUCH more practice to become skilled at it.
stephenm2682
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how about flux core, is it cheaper to buy & run?
modelengineer
Lord of the noise
Flux core, in costs, would be between MIG and ARC. The wire is a lot more expensive than normal 6013 rods, and a bit more expensive than normal mig wire, but you don't need to buy/hire gas bottles and gas.
If you are going to go flux core, try to get a welder which will do normal MIG with gas, and use flux core in it. That way, if you decide you want gas then you can. If you get a purely flux core welder then that's all it can do.
If you are going to go flux core, try to get a welder which will do normal MIG with gas, and use flux core in it. That way, if you decide you want gas then you can. If you get a purely flux core welder then that's all it can do.
stephenm2682
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so would an 140amp arc be anygood for 1" or 1.5" square tubing?
modelengineer
Lord of the noise
Perfect. It's what I am using.
stephenm2682
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if i'm to use square tubing how would i butt them up? without getting 2 technical. an example
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh19/ironruffy/P8280005.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh19/ironruffy/P8280005.jpg
modelengineer
Lord of the noise
Thats how you do it. When you want to join parts together at a corner, it is best to cut both pieces at 45 degrees. If you want any other angle, such as 2 pieces joined together at 45 degrees, you cut an angle of half that (22.5 degrees) on each piece.
stephenm2682
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last question, ac or dc welder?
Kenny_McCormic
Kartless....
DC is nice but AC works fine for most welding.
stephenm2682
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if i weld a wall thickness of 2.5mm, will i need a rod that's 2.5mm aswell?
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/40726/Power-Tools/Welding/Welding-Rods-2-5mm-5kg-Pack
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/40726/Power-Tools/Welding/Welding-Rods-2-5mm-5kg-Pack
stephenm2682
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what rod for 1" with 2.5mm wall
modelengineer
Lord of the noise
I use 2.5mm 6013 rods and they work fine on pretty much everything.
hedjhawg
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There is a bit of bad info in the above posts. Let me try to help.
There are two different types of machines being discussed. Both are "arc".
A stick welding machine can be had for around $300 - a little less for DC only, or a little more for AC/DC.
A wire feed machine can be capable of either MIG (metal inert gas) and flux-core. The easiest process to learn is flux-core, but it has its drawbacks: The wire itself is more expensive and is most readily available ony in diameter of .035 in. Because of the way the flux burns (in order to shied the weld), it leaves a heavy slag and smoke buildup in the work. It is very important to chip off the slag any time you stop, then re-start, a weld.
MIG is different in that the wire can be as small as .023 in al the way up to .045 in. in diameter (wire size is reated to the thickness of the material you are welding). As one poster said, you can buy a MIG welder and run Flux Core in it so that if you decide to play around with Flux Core, you can "upgrade" to MIG and not have wasted any money on the machine.
MIG makes a cleaner weld as there is no solid Flux to burn and leave slag behind. It does add another variable to the process in terms of setting up your gas (Argon or CO2).
I disagree with the post that says that the bigger welder can do anything that the smaller welder can do. This is as correct as saying that "a sledge hammer can do anything a finish hammer can do, and more." Technically, I suppose this is true, but installing trimwork with a sledge hammer makes for difficult, sloppy work.
The heat range of the machine that you use is related to the thickness of the material you are welding. If you are repairing sheet metal body panels, you wouls want to use a machine capable of low settings and a small diameter wire (like .023 in.) in order to avoid burning through the work.
The thicker the wire you use, the more heat it takes to melt it. So if you tried to mend the same sheet metal part with a machine pushing .045 in. wire, you would likely have very much trouble - the part would burn, not fuse.
Staying on the wire feed topic, you will find that the machines run in the "smaller" and "larger" categories. Smaller machines run on 120 VAC or sometimes 240 VAC, and they will ba capable of using wire from, say, .023-.035 in. A machine like this would be capable of sheet metal through medium wall tubing - like a go kart is built from.
Larger machines usually require 220VAC (480VAC in industrial applications) and can push wire from .035-.045, sometimes up to .055. I am not going to say that you CAN'T stitch sheet metal with this kind of machine, but you do have to put a lot more heat into melting the wire, which dramatically increases the probability of burn through and part warpage. However, this machine will give you much better results in welding quarter-inch wall squate tubing (like in the link above) that a 115 VAC machine with .023 wire.
Remember that, for kart frame applications, the OD of the tube is irrelevant to the welder, but the wall thickness is. That being the case, if I could only have one welder or the types we are discussing, I would invest in a 220 VAC MIG unit from one of the reputable manufacturers like Hobart/Miller (same company now), Lincoln or ESAB, whether new or used. Do NOT, under any circumstances, buy a non-name eBay or Harbor freight unit. You get less than what you pay for, and you will regret your decision in very short order.
For example, I picked up a used 220VAC Hobart Beta Mig 250 for around $400 at a surplus sale. It is overkill for what I need, but what a pleasure to use. A new machine would run 5 to 10 times that price.
As important as the machine is the dealer - maybe more so. In my area, I am fortunate to have a Praxair and Airgas dealers within 10 miles, as well as a few regional suppliers. While both Praxair and Airgas are good, the Airgas guys are AWESOME! They help with accessories, they answer questions, they search out parts (my Hobart is 12-15 years old and they still find me parts when I need them). They loan me DVDs on things I want to learn. They call me back when I leave messages. They ROCK (I have no affiliation, other than I love my retailer). For these reasons, I stronly encourage you to buy any new (or used) equipment from the "best" dealer in your area. You won't spend any more money buying from Airgas than you would buying the same machine at Lowes, Home depot or Menards, so why not buy from the store that's gonna be there to help you later on?
finally, let me circle back to the stick welder. That process, in my book, is harder to learn than wire feed. If you look at the diameter of the consumable rod, you can tell that they are built to push some heat - heat that might be very hard to control on thin wall kart tubing.
and, just to confuse the issue even more, if I were to replace my stick welder (which gets used 2x per yeasr at most), I would replace it with a TIG/Stick combo like the ones from Miller. They list a machine, complete with all accessories, torches, etc that will TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) and stick weld for a list price of around $2,800, but retails for just under $2,000 on the street. (note: Any unit that can TIG can Stick weld - assuming you have the righ accessories)
If you go to your local dealer, tell him what you are looking to weld, what your facilities are like (i.. if you don't have 220VAC in your garage, you don't want a 220 volt welder), what your experience level is, what your budget is and whether you want new or used, they will get you the right equipment...
There are two different types of machines being discussed. Both are "arc".
A stick welding machine can be had for around $300 - a little less for DC only, or a little more for AC/DC.
A wire feed machine can be capable of either MIG (metal inert gas) and flux-core. The easiest process to learn is flux-core, but it has its drawbacks: The wire itself is more expensive and is most readily available ony in diameter of .035 in. Because of the way the flux burns (in order to shied the weld), it leaves a heavy slag and smoke buildup in the work. It is very important to chip off the slag any time you stop, then re-start, a weld.
MIG is different in that the wire can be as small as .023 in al the way up to .045 in. in diameter (wire size is reated to the thickness of the material you are welding). As one poster said, you can buy a MIG welder and run Flux Core in it so that if you decide to play around with Flux Core, you can "upgrade" to MIG and not have wasted any money on the machine.
MIG makes a cleaner weld as there is no solid Flux to burn and leave slag behind. It does add another variable to the process in terms of setting up your gas (Argon or CO2).
I disagree with the post that says that the bigger welder can do anything that the smaller welder can do. This is as correct as saying that "a sledge hammer can do anything a finish hammer can do, and more." Technically, I suppose this is true, but installing trimwork with a sledge hammer makes for difficult, sloppy work.
The heat range of the machine that you use is related to the thickness of the material you are welding. If you are repairing sheet metal body panels, you wouls want to use a machine capable of low settings and a small diameter wire (like .023 in.) in order to avoid burning through the work.
The thicker the wire you use, the more heat it takes to melt it. So if you tried to mend the same sheet metal part with a machine pushing .045 in. wire, you would likely have very much trouble - the part would burn, not fuse.
Staying on the wire feed topic, you will find that the machines run in the "smaller" and "larger" categories. Smaller machines run on 120 VAC or sometimes 240 VAC, and they will ba capable of using wire from, say, .023-.035 in. A machine like this would be capable of sheet metal through medium wall tubing - like a go kart is built from.
Larger machines usually require 220VAC (480VAC in industrial applications) and can push wire from .035-.045, sometimes up to .055. I am not going to say that you CAN'T stitch sheet metal with this kind of machine, but you do have to put a lot more heat into melting the wire, which dramatically increases the probability of burn through and part warpage. However, this machine will give you much better results in welding quarter-inch wall squate tubing (like in the link above) that a 115 VAC machine with .023 wire.
Remember that, for kart frame applications, the OD of the tube is irrelevant to the welder, but the wall thickness is. That being the case, if I could only have one welder or the types we are discussing, I would invest in a 220 VAC MIG unit from one of the reputable manufacturers like Hobart/Miller (same company now), Lincoln or ESAB, whether new or used. Do NOT, under any circumstances, buy a non-name eBay or Harbor freight unit. You get less than what you pay for, and you will regret your decision in very short order.
For example, I picked up a used 220VAC Hobart Beta Mig 250 for around $400 at a surplus sale. It is overkill for what I need, but what a pleasure to use. A new machine would run 5 to 10 times that price.
As important as the machine is the dealer - maybe more so. In my area, I am fortunate to have a Praxair and Airgas dealers within 10 miles, as well as a few regional suppliers. While both Praxair and Airgas are good, the Airgas guys are AWESOME! They help with accessories, they answer questions, they search out parts (my Hobart is 12-15 years old and they still find me parts when I need them). They loan me DVDs on things I want to learn. They call me back when I leave messages. They ROCK (I have no affiliation, other than I love my retailer). For these reasons, I stronly encourage you to buy any new (or used) equipment from the "best" dealer in your area. You won't spend any more money buying from Airgas than you would buying the same machine at Lowes, Home depot or Menards, so why not buy from the store that's gonna be there to help you later on?
finally, let me circle back to the stick welder. That process, in my book, is harder to learn than wire feed. If you look at the diameter of the consumable rod, you can tell that they are built to push some heat - heat that might be very hard to control on thin wall kart tubing.
and, just to confuse the issue even more, if I were to replace my stick welder (which gets used 2x per yeasr at most), I would replace it with a TIG/Stick combo like the ones from Miller. They list a machine, complete with all accessories, torches, etc that will TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) and stick weld for a list price of around $2,800, but retails for just under $2,000 on the street. (note: Any unit that can TIG can Stick weld - assuming you have the righ accessories)
If you go to your local dealer, tell him what you are looking to weld, what your facilities are like (i.. if you don't have 220VAC in your garage, you don't want a 220 volt welder), what your experience level is, what your budget is and whether you want new or used, they will get you the right equipment...
stephenm2682
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right so 200 ish for a mig, then the gas? wow i can buy 140 amp stick welder for £30
infact MERLIN 150 ARC £35
infact MERLIN 150 ARC £35
modelengineer
Lord of the noise
Most cheap arc welders are AC
stephenm2682
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I have done a lot of welding & use a DC stick welder.
The thing with DC is that the negitive end (-)of the weld will get hotter than the (+) end.
Thats a big thing when it comes to TIG welding (I don't TIG weld much).
Its not as noticable with Stick welding. But the effect is still there.
DC + earth will heat up the rod more & put less heat into the material.
Thats good when it comes to welding thin wall tubing.
DC - earth will heat up the material more, great when you have heavy metal sections to weld & a small amperage welder.
Most of my welding is using 2.5mm rods & the welders set at 55 - 80 amps (more for tack welds, less for actually joining metals)
I hardly use Ac welders, the thing to remember is that the weld arc goes thru 50 cycles a second (60 in America).
That means the arc is constanty moving,
starting one way, increasing in power, peaking, dieing off,
stopping, going the other way, increasing in power, peaking, then dieing off again.
Thats one cycle, that happens 50 times a second! or faster (faster = smoother)
So basicly the weld stops 50 times a second too...
With DC its constant power all the time.
---------------
The other thing, I weld using Low Hydrogen rods. (7016 or 56s rods)
Thats what we use, I'm used to that.
Put me on a General purpose rod (Satincraft or 6011) & I make a hopeless weld.
I'm just not used to it at all.
Theres no difference between the weld metal colour & the flux colour behind the welding glass.
You have to use a long arc (goes everywhere, before burning thru the thin metal!)
& You can't 'direct' the weld metal into the weld.
Low hydrogen rods are notoriously hard to start for learners.
You need to scratch start the weld & have the rod start were you want to weld.
Once you get used to it, boy is it easy! Its as if you never stopped welding.
You also need a real short arc on them, which is good, it doesn't heat up the material you are welding as much as a long arc does.
Great for thin metal & pipe welding.
-----------
I Have seen someone fit diodes to a AC welder & turn it into a DC welder.
I was impressed, he also fitted a fan to cool the diodes & the transformer coil.
I don't know what Diodes were used except he used several of them & connected it up so theres a lower load on the diodes.
Considering he was doing Tig welding & using 2.5mm rods, the welder was up to the job.
Allways check your earth!
The thing with DC is that the negitive end (-)of the weld will get hotter than the (+) end.
Thats a big thing when it comes to TIG welding (I don't TIG weld much).
Its not as noticable with Stick welding. But the effect is still there.
DC + earth will heat up the rod more & put less heat into the material.
Thats good when it comes to welding thin wall tubing.
DC - earth will heat up the material more, great when you have heavy metal sections to weld & a small amperage welder.
Most of my welding is using 2.5mm rods & the welders set at 55 - 80 amps (more for tack welds, less for actually joining metals)
I hardly use Ac welders, the thing to remember is that the weld arc goes thru 50 cycles a second (60 in America).
That means the arc is constanty moving,
starting one way, increasing in power, peaking, dieing off,
stopping, going the other way, increasing in power, peaking, then dieing off again.
Thats one cycle, that happens 50 times a second! or faster (faster = smoother)
So basicly the weld stops 50 times a second too...
With DC its constant power all the time.
---------------
The other thing, I weld using Low Hydrogen rods. (7016 or 56s rods)
Thats what we use, I'm used to that.
Put me on a General purpose rod (Satincraft or 6011) & I make a hopeless weld.
I'm just not used to it at all.
Theres no difference between the weld metal colour & the flux colour behind the welding glass.
You have to use a long arc (goes everywhere, before burning thru the thin metal!)
& You can't 'direct' the weld metal into the weld.
Low hydrogen rods are notoriously hard to start for learners.
You need to scratch start the weld & have the rod start were you want to weld.
Once you get used to it, boy is it easy! Its as if you never stopped welding.
You also need a real short arc on them, which is good, it doesn't heat up the material you are welding as much as a long arc does.
Great for thin metal & pipe welding.
-----------
I Have seen someone fit diodes to a AC welder & turn it into a DC welder.
I was impressed, he also fitted a fan to cool the diodes & the transformer coil.
I don't know what Diodes were used except he used several of them & connected it up so theres a lower load on the diodes.
Considering he was doing Tig welding & using 2.5mm rods, the welder was up to the job.
Allways check your earth!
One thing ive not seen mentioned is the voltage input. I have Hobart 135 MIG running .030 fluxcore wire that uses 120 volt input (typical US electrical outlet). I stick weld (what some of u are refering to as "arc weld") at work, but dont have a 240 volt outlet set up near my garage at home.
Most DC and AC stick welding machines are going to be cheap yes, but require a 240 volt outlet.
MIG machines on the other hand can go up to (on average) 140amps and weld up to 1/4 plate, while still using only 120 volt outlet (typical electrical outlet).
All in all, to do the work of a gokart, I would suggest nothing more than a 140 amp MIG machine running fluxcore wire. Then later u can buy a bottle for gas and run solid MIG wire. Just remember your chipping hammer and wire brush! VERY IMPORTANT!!!
Most DC and AC stick welding machines are going to be cheap yes, but require a 240 volt outlet.
MIG machines on the other hand can go up to (on average) 140amps and weld up to 1/4 plate, while still using only 120 volt outlet (typical electrical outlet).
All in all, to do the work of a gokart, I would suggest nothing more than a 140 amp MIG machine running fluxcore wire. Then later u can buy a bottle for gas and run solid MIG wire. Just remember your chipping hammer and wire brush! VERY IMPORTANT!!!
stephenm2682
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i have already bought a stick welder, 230v, 50-185amp, input amperage 29 amps, and loads of e6013 rods & couple of 7016. what you think?
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