Advanced Hemi 212cc Predator Build

[bob58o]

Are you saying you can't properly thread a bolt in that hole? If so, what is your concern?

I asked a lot of this just to try to diagnose what caused the bolt failure. Probably mainly a flaw in the bolt itself. I don't think that's a bottom out problem...but washers wouldn't hurt .Also...even though you're running higher compression I would back off the torque a pound or two.

Consider this: a big part of those torque values are based on what it takes to crush a thicker gasket and compress it enough to keep it from blowing out. A thinner gasket needs less pressure, no?

I was just showing where it was ground in the pictures.

I can thread the bolt in just fine as is, without running a tap through it. I just figured running a tap might help clean it up a bit.

The measurements seem to show that it wasn't bottomed out.

I'm not sure about the force required to compress the stock composite gasket to what ever its compressed thickness is compared to the force required to compress the MLS gasket to its compressed thickness.

But here's some MLS gasket info I found instead. It explains MLS gaskets act more like a spring when combustion happens and the head gets pushed away from the block.

WHY MLS?
The latest alternative to reinforced composite head gaskets and copper head gaskets for performance engines are MLS gaskets. Unlike these other types of gaskets, MLS gaskets use a different strategy to seal the combustion chamber. They typically use 3 to 5 layers of stainless steel to create a spring-like effect that seals the gap between the head and block.

As engine compression, rpm and combustion pressure go up, the cylinder head is pushed away from the block every time the cylinders fire. The movement isn’t enough to be seen with the naked eye, but it can be measured – and it can be enough to break the seal between the head and block with conventional gasket designs. The amount of lift depends on cylinder pressures and how much the head bolts stretch.

To maintain the seal when the head is pushed up and away from the block, the head gasket has to expand as the head lifts. This requires a certain amount of springiness or elasticity that can only be achieved with an MLS head gasket.

The multi-layer construction of MLS head gaskets allows the inner layer(s) to act something like a valve spring. As the head lifts away from the block, the inner layer(s) of the gasket push the outer layers apart to maintain the seal. The spring steel expands and contracts without taking a permanent set or deforming under load, and the gasket maintains its seal. That’s why MLS gaskets have more "vertical recovery" than other types of gaskets and can handle high pressure applications.

In a stock engine, the maximum combustion pressures may only reach about 1,000 psi. But in a performance engine, they can reach 1,500 to 2,200 psi under race conditions, and soar as high as 3,500 psi if the engine goes into detonation. The higher the pressure, the greater the cylinder head separation from the block – and the more the gasket has to expand and contract to maintain its seal.

Aftermarket MLS performance gaskets are engineered for racing and are not just copies of the OEM style MLS gaskets. They have strategically placed sealing beads around the combustion chambers and coolant passages to concentrate clamping loads in the most critical areas. Some MLS gaskets have an additional stainless steel "stopper ring" to further increase sealing pressure around the combustion chambers (such as in Chevy LS1/LS6 engines).

One gasket supplier also has a line of MLS performance gaskets that incorporate a unique "gas-filled ring" around the combustion chambers. The pressure inside the ring is 600 to 700 psi, and increases as the engine heats up to increase the clamping load and combustion seal. Features like these have enabled MLS gaskets to become the gasket of choice for many forms of racing as well as street performance applications.

The all-steel construction of MLS gaskets makes them almost bullet-proof under even the most extreme operating conditions. The gaskets also have an exterior "Viton" or polymer coating that helps them cold seal on less than ideal surfaces. Most original equipment MLS require extremely smooth finishes (20 to 30 Ra) to seal. Most performance MLS gaskets require a surface of 50 Ra or less, and some have thicker coatings that can accommodate surface finishes as rough as 60 Ra.

As for reusability, MLS gasket suppliers say MLS gaskets should not be reused because the embossing may not fully recover once the gasket has been through a thermal cycle. But as long as the gasket appears to be in good condition when it is removed, many racers find they can reuse MLS gaskets with no problems. And if the surface coating has a damaged spot or two, it can often be repaired with a light coating of RTV silicone.

Many racers who used to run copper heads gaskets have switched to MLS because the gaskets hold up just as well and don’t have the sealing or installation issues associated with copper gaskets. The only drawback with MLS gaskets are their price.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2006/10/engine-sealing-high-performance-head-gaskets/

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 PM ----------

Do I need to order a gx series head bolt? Or can I find / make one from the hardware store?

If I don't get the stock one, I should probably get 4 of them?

I can order 1 stock one for $5 with shipping from ebay (It is $0.65 at BMI with $8 shipping).
Or 4 for $10.

The stud kit is like $20 with shipping. I would have ordered it by now, but didn't have my cc when I woke up.

The stock bolts are grade 5 and the stud/bolt kit for head /side cover (from AGK) is grade 10.9.


I went ahead and ordered the head stud kit with washers and nuts from NR racing. I also got some valve spring shims 0.060", 0.030", and 0.016" - a few each.

 

[bob58o]

Home Depot has grade 8.8 M8x1.25 x 60 mm bolts. However they were not flanged and they only had 3 of em. Otherwise, besides the flange and grade, they are same.

A buck 0 Nine each I think.

 

[bob58o]

So I took the stock idle jet out of the 390 carb. It is my first time looking at it.

There looks to be a brass fitting (jet) inside the black plastic housing.
The additional one I purchased doesn't have the metal part. It is all plastic.

The stock one comes with a top and bottom O-Ring.
The one I got comes with only an O-Ring on the bottom (nearest jet hole).
Some people play around with these O-Rings when tuning the carb. Removing one or the other.

The fit is tighter with the aftermarket jet and only one ring. The O-Ring is bigger.

---------- Post added at 06:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

F! just saw my block with with gov removed and BSP-2 cam for $40.

I should of waited to buy the block I don't need.

I'd post the link, but it is a personal builder on another site. He sells lots of short blocks. A few items just went up for sale.

Tell me this don't sound awesome!
"Have one 69730 block with hemi crank and flat top piston. Has 14 cc head 27/25mm valves port work 26lb springs. You choice on cam. Thanks"

 

[Poboy kartman]

Ain't it funny....I designing a build around a stock 3.5 hp Tecumseh that I honestly don't think I've even pulled the starter cord on. Doesn't have a fuel tank.

But the guy that sold it to me was a country boy here in Texas. He had a can of carb cleaner with him and was going to show me it did run with a shot.

I told him that was totally unnecessary....his word was good enough
...it's how we roll where the west begins.

 

[bob58o]

Here is the post about the O-Ring Mod.
Bob;

I am running a clone with a custom cam, 11:1CR, on 93 octane, 24&27mm valves, some porting and a 390 carb with a short adapter. I launch at 4600 RPM. Jetting is as follows: 0.030" pilot, 0.042" main, stock E-Tube. I had an erratic idle and starting issues ( nasty kick) until I installed the top O ring on the pilot jet. There is still a bit of a stumble off idle but it is below my stall speed. I am told but have no personal experience that the stumble may be helped by enlarging a couple of the holes behind the Welch plug by 0.002". If your stumble occurs at or above your stall speed it could be problematic. By the way I am running a genuine Honda carb. My next build is a predator with the same setup.

---------- Post added at 06:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

This thread is so long and drawn out and all over the place, I forgot what I shared already. Sorry if the O-ring mod was a duplicate, but I forgot what it said and needed to look it up.

The same guy say they race with 30 series TC's but need more maintenance. Suggested extra belts or a 3/4" 40 series if on trails or a few miles from home. No fun pushing these for miles.

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 PM ----------

Ain't it funny....I designing a build around a stock 3.5 hp Tecumseh that I honestly don't think I've even pulled the starter cord on. Doesn't have a fuel tank.

But the guy that sold it to me was a country boy here in Texas. He had a can of carb cleaner with him and was going to show me it did run with a shot.

I told him that was totally unnecessary....his word was good enough
...it's how we roll where the west begins.

I would have made him at least try and hoped it didn't start. Then I'd offer $5 instead of $10. JK, my Tecumseh on the mini bike seems to do OK?

---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 PM ----------

What else should be included but probably not read.
I feel that I covered almost every part of the build, including some theory....

Since I'm working with the jets....

AFR
Why lean makes more power but is dangerous
When discussing engine tuning the 'Air/Fuel Ratio' (AFR) is one of the main topics. Proper AFR calibration is critical to performance and durability of the engine and it's components. The AFR defines the ratio of the amount of air consumed by the engine compared to the amount of fuel.

A 'Stoichiometric' AFR has the correct amount of air and fuel to produce a chemically complete combustion event. For gasoline engines, the stoichiometric, A/F ratio is 14.7:1, which means 14.7 parts of air to one part of fuel. The stoichiometric AFR depends on fuel type-- for alcohol it is 6.4:1 and 14.5:1 for diesel.

So what is meant by a rich or lean AFR? A lower AFR number contains less air than the 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR, therefore it is a richer mixture. Conversely, a higher AFR number contains more air and therefore it is a leaner mixture.

For Example:
15.0:1 = Lean
14.7:1 = Stoichiometric
13.0:1 = Rich

Leaner AFR results in higher temperatures as the mixture is combusted. Generally, normally-aspirated spark-ignition (SI) gasoline engines produce maximum power just slightly rich of stoichiometric. However, in practice it is kept between 12:1 and 13:1 in order to keep exhaust gas temperatures in check and to account for variances in fuel quality. This is a realistic full-load AFR on a normally-aspirated engine but can be dangerously lean with a highly-boosted engine.

 

[cavfire]

Shipping is a tad slow, but The Nutty Company has Class 10.9 M8 threaded rod for $3.81 for a 3' stick. I bought some other nuts and bolts along with the purchase so the $7 shipping didn't hurt so much, and it's still cheaper than a stud kit. Did the side cover studs with a exhaust manifold stud kit from advance auto.

 

[bob58o]

And since we covered plug temps...
Here's the ignition system in one line.
http://smallengineinformation.com/?page_id=405

---------- Post added at 07:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

Shipping is a tad slow, but The Nutty Company has Class 10.9 M8 threaded rod for $3.81 for a 3' stick. I bought some other nuts and bolts along with the purchase so the $7 shipping didn't hurt so much, and it's still cheaper than a stud kit. Did the side cover studs with a exhaust manifold stud kit from advance auto.

Nice, Once again my impatience is expensive!
Thanks for the tip.
EDIT:
Dorman - Exhaust Manifold Mount Hardware - M8-1.25mm

Part No: 03411
M8 1.25 stud kit for $8. Are the side cover bolts same? M8 - 1.25?

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

So what is the procedure with a stud kit. Loctite on the studs, then hand tighten them all the way?, then put on gasket and head, and finally torque nuts while the loctite in the block is still wet?

Some random stud kit instructions...

http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/204-4704.pdf

 

[cavfire]

Link from Advance doesn't show the stud kit, but it should be M8. The threaded rod would work too, only reason I did the stud kit from Advance is I put studs in the side before even thinking about doing it for the head. Had a bolt stretch and mess up the threads in the block, tapped it to 3/8-18 and studded it with a cut down bolt and the rest with the kit from Advance.

I wait a day after thread locking the studs. The loctite will start curing as soon as the stud is threaded in, and I prefer letting it fully cure. If it was a single fastener I wouldn't wait, but I'd rather not be torquing the nut 30 minutes in on the last fastener. Might not even matter though.

 

[bob58o]

Well since I got the spare block coming and I had so much fun building this one. I may start building another. BUT this time, I would start with nothing but the bare block and instead of GAB on a stock engine... It would be more like Blue Printed by Bob. It would have no time line or destination, but be carefully designed.

Been looking at this stuff.... Its like porn. This guy does some nice work.
https://www.facebook.com/Clone-Engine-Parts-Online-430877047043325/photos?ref=page_internal

 

[bob58o]

Here is one of the better write ups about camshafts specifically for Honda / Clone engines...
It was quoted on a thread, from a thread, from Russel at NR Racing.

There are four important numbers on a cam. ICL (intake center line), LS (lobe separation), duration, and lift.

Don’t worry too much about lift. The Honda head (i.e. port design) does not respond much once the lift at the valve exceeds about .350. A .275 lift cam with 1.3 rockers will achieve this. We have spent a lot of time on the flow bench, and unless the head is radically changed you will not see much gain past .350 lift.

Duration is another story. This is how long the valve is kept open. Hondas love lots of duration. We have run as much as 300 at .050, but 260 seems to be a good compromise better power and tractability. As duration goes up, so does the rpm at which max power is made. At the same time idle quality goes down along with low-end torque. An engine with a lot of duration will scream and make lots of power but can be a dog off the corners and/or trying to get started, not to mention idles at 3000 rpm.

Typically 210 to 220 makes for high torque motors that start and stop a lot, use low rpm stall/clutches, and see a wide range in operating rpm. These motors will peak somewhere between 4500 and 5500, and will pull to 6500.

250 to 260 are for the 7000+ motors that don’t see RPM much below 5000.

Needless to say, 230 to 240 cams fall in the middle.

One interesting thing about duration, the smaller the carb, the more duration can help a motor. With small carbs, usually the cam/ports will flow more than the carb can deliver. The only way to improve power is the hold the valve open longer. In other words, where going from a 240 to a 260 cam on a motor running a 28 mm Mikuni will only show a 10% improvement in peak HP, doing the same on a motor with a stock carb can show a 20% improvement.

Almost as critical as duration, is the ICL. This is the intake opening and will range from 98 to 116 degrees. It is also referred to retard or advance in the cam. This determines the where the peak torque will occur. Most cams fall in the 102 to 110 range. FYI: Honda 160s are around 105 and GX200s around 110 from the factory (retarded for emissions).
A cam with a 102 will have power range/peak around 1000 to 2000 rpm lower than a cam with 110 ICL. It will also have considerable more low-end torque and will pull a lot harder off the corners. For very, very small tracks this can translate into significantly lower lap times despite having lower HP. For Boats, winch boarding, rock climbing ATVs, these cams can make huge differences. Depending on the application, it is possible to stall a motor that has a high ICL, whereas advancing the cam produces great results.

At the other extreme, a cam with 114 ICL might peak in the 9000-rpm range. On a large track (1/2 mile) where the rpms never get below 7500, it would be unbeatable. However, you would need a clutch that engages at 5000+ just to get moving. Not always fun for a street toy.
The other important number is the LS (lob separation), which determines the amount of overlap. These will range from 100 to 115, but most cams will be in the 106 to 110 range. As a general rule the lower the number, the more HP, but the with a smaller power band. However, the wider (less overlap) the LS, the more dynamic compression a motor can build. For high compression engines, overlap is needed to bleed off compression at lower RPMs preventing detonation. Anything over 11 to 1 should be using a 106 to 107 LS. For lower compressions, it depends on how wide a power band is desired. If you want a power band of only a few 1000 rpm (typical for oval tracks), then go with a narrow LS, however if your rpm ranges from 2000 to 7000 (road courses), then you may want a wide LS.

The duration, ICL, and LS all work together and changing any or all of these numbers can have a significant impact on how a motor performs.

One final note, what works on the dyno does not always work on the track and vice versa. What works great in a Mini Bike may not be the best for a Kart, a dirt track cam is not going to be the same as a paved cam, etc, etc.

www.nr-racing.com

The part number of our cams tells the ICL and LS. The first number is the lift, the second set is the CL, and the last set is the LS. For example

280 0207 .280 lift 102 ICL 107 LS
252 0607 .252 lift 106 ICL 107 LS
252 0207 .252 lift 102 ICL 107 LS
252 0211 .252 lift 102 ICL 111 LS
274 0607 .274 lift 106 ICL 107 LS

 

[chancer]

Hey Bob just a personal Question
Do you understand and comprehend all this info you find and read?
You are a smart guy. So why are you a bartender? No offense. I just wonder if you are working your way through college or something.

 

[gman3850]

And the GAB'd..

a vw rocker stud fits perfectly in these after u strip them.

I did it once myself and looked around all my spare bolts and studs and found that the step stud from the rockers is a perfect length, both block and head

 

[bob58o]

Hey Bob just a personal Question
Do you understand and comprehend all this info you find and read?
You are a smart guy. So why are you a bartender? No offense. I just wonder if you are working your way through college or something.

The more I read, the more I understand - if that makes sense.

I can read something once and not really understand it, then try to find a better explanation (meaning one that fits my style of learning and base knowledge better).

I can start "Googling" and get taken on an ADD internet adventure. I often forget what I started looking for in the first place but seem to find relevant information.

I often find my question is too specific and there is a whole lot more to understand first, before I even get to that.

Minutes, Hours, Days, Weeks, Months go by. By this point have I looked for 100's of pieces of specific info and side tracked 1000's of times. Each time I click a link and start reading, it is like finding another piece of a puzzle.

I often come across the same website multiple times. Each time I understand a little bit more than before. The picture is a little clearer because I have more pieces of the puzzle each time I look at it.


As far as why I Tend Bar....
??? It pays double what my last job did, allows me to date girls that are 23-27, doesn't require boring (TO ME) desk work, allows me to be social and fun, get to watch sports at work, get to eat free food everyday, and I don't feel like I'm working for an evil corporation/government tag team that is trying to enslave the human population with its use of propaganda, domestic terrorism, corrupt politics, and David Hasselhoff (such a beautiful voice).

My Boss only tries to enslave those of us who work there and as long as you got a backbone, he can be reasoned with. I find I can use loopy reason and circular logic to talk my way out of stuff at work.

I would like to do what everybody does. Work with what they are passionate about and be their own boss.

So I guess, that means I will have to own a Strip Club / Pittie Rescue next to Wrigley Field.

Now I'm sure some Rules have been broken.

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------




Speaking of my understand of what I read...
This seems to contradict my understanding...

It all makes sense EXCEPT the LS part. It seems to be backwards at times??

AND SOMETIMES I GET MUCH MORE CONFUSED EVEN WHEN I THINK I HAVE IT FIGURED OUT.

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

Ed Iskendarian (Tim's Dad)

Lift, Duration, & LSA
Designing a camshaft is all about juggling the duration, lift, and lobe-separation angle to optimize the shape of the powerband for a given application. If you have a camshaft with the same lift and duration, you can change where the power and torque come on in the same rpm band. For example, in a Pro Stock or Pro Mod motor, we set most of them on a 116- to 118-degree LSA, whereas we used to run them at 108-112 degrees. The tighter LSA created too much torque down low, which resulted in tire shake. Using a wider LSA moved the power higher up in the rpm band, eliminating tire shake and making the power more useable. Likewise, in certain oval track classes we run into rules that limit maximum lift. In situations where we're limited to 0.410-inch lift, we run upwards of 248-250 degrees duration at 0.050 and are still able to make power at 7,000 rpm. As you can see, lift and duration go hand in hand, in terms of making power while the lobe-separation angle affects where in that powerband you'll make peak power and torque. Think about it @9000rpm the valves whack the seats about 75 times a second see how long it takes to snap your fingers


Thanks "Big ED"

 

[chancer]

That was a great answer to my almost insulting Question.
Except one thing...
"So I guess, that means I will have to own a Strip Club / Pittie Rescue/Small Engine Shop next to Wrigley Field.

 

[bob58o]

Anywhoooo,

I think for the spare block, I kinda like the 18cc non-hemi head on the hemi block. It is something different. Maybe get the head milled 0.060" and use a 0.045" gasket with a Rod and Piston that bring me close to flush with the deck.

Thinking 7500 -8000 RPM


Maybe a custom cam 0.290" lift, 246 degree duration, 108 degree lobe separation.

????? so much to think about when waiting on studs..... like where to put this 8000 RPM engine.

 

[Flyinhillbilly]

The more I read, the more I understand - if that makes sense.

I can read something once and not really understand it, then try to find a better explanation (meaning one that fits my style of learning and base knowledge better).

I can start "Googling" and get taken on an ADD internet adventure. I often forget what I started looking for in the first place but seem to find relevant information.

I often find my question is too specific and there is a whole lot more to understand first, before I even get to that.

Minutes, Hours, Days, Weeks, Months go by. By this point have I looked for 100's of pieces of specific info and side tracked 1000's of times. Each time I click a link and start reading, it is like finding another piece of a puzzle.

I often come across the same website multiple times. Each time I understand a little bit more than before. The picture is a little clearer because I have more pieces of the puzzle each time I look at it.


As far as why I Tend Bar....
??? It pays double what my last job did, allows me to date girls that are 23-27, doesn't require boring (TO ME) desk work, allows me to be social and fun, get to watch sports at work, get to eat free food everyday, and I don't feel like I'm working for an evil corporation/government tag team that is trying to enslave the human population with its use of propaganda, domestic terrorism, corrupt politics, and David Hasselhoff (such a beautiful voice).

My Boss only tries to enslave those of us who work there and as long as you got a backbone, he can be reasoned with. I find I can use loopy reason and circular logic to talk my way out of stuff at work.

I would like to do what everybody does. Work with what they are passionate about and be their own boss.

So I guess, that means I will have to own a Strip Club / Pittie Rescue next to Wrigley Field.

Now I'm sure some Rules have been broken.

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------




Speaking of my understand of what I read...
This seems to contradict my understanding...

It all makes sense EXCEPT the LS part. It seems to be backwards at times??

AND SOMETIMES I GET MUCH MORE CONFUSED EVEN WHEN I THINK I HAVE IT FIGURED OUT.

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

Ed Iskendarian (Tim's Dad)

Lift, Duration, & LSA
Designing a camshaft is all about juggling the duration, lift, and lobe-separation angle to optimize the shape of the powerband for a given application. If you have a camshaft with the same lift and duration, you can change where the power and torque come on in the same rpm band. For example, in a Pro Stock or Pro Mod motor, we set most of them on a 116- to 118-degree LSA, whereas we used to run them at 108-112 degrees. The tighter LSA created too much torque down low, which resulted in tire shake. Using a wider LSA moved the power higher up in the rpm band, eliminating tire shake and making the power more useable. Likewise, in certain oval track classes we run into rules that limit maximum lift. In situations where we're limited to 0.410-inch lift, we run upwards of 248-250 degrees duration at 0.050 and are still able to make power at 7,000 rpm. As you can see, lift and duration go hand in hand, in terms of making power while the lobe-separation angle affects where in that powerband you'll make peak power and torque. Think about it @9000rpm the valves whack the seats about 75 times a second see how long it takes to snap your fingers


Thanks "Big ED"

wider lsa's make torque down low.

 

[bob58o]

I want to change my answer.
Missy is the only reason I tend bar!!!
One day she'll take my proposals seriously.

 

[landuse]

Does she work with you?

 

[bob58o]

wider lsa's make torque down low.

I was looking at he custom cams. The offer 104, 108, and LSA.
Maybe I was misreading, or maybe the wording wasn't clear?

It seems out of 104, 108, and 110.
104 is for torque. 108 is best all around. 110 is for upper RPM HP?


When I get home I'll post the link. It was SmallEngineCams custom grind options.

---------- Post added at 02:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 AM ----------

Does she work with you?

She is a waitress and a bartender in training. I ask her father and brother if I can marry her every time I see them. I've offered goats in exchange.... I don't think that is how it works, but I've never been married so I don't know.

Best part is she doesn't know that she is out of my league YET!!! AND she begs for a ride in the go kart!

This is the face that goes with the butt I posted before. You are

 

[cavfire]

Tighter LSA normally have a higher peak torque, but narrower torque curve. Have to consider valve overlap as well. Two cams can have the same LSA, but the one with more duration has more overlap.