Are Electric Actually Builds Simpler Than Gas Builds?

SquidBonez

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I know there are quite a few people on these forums with lots of experience building electric creations, so I thought this could be an interesting discussion. Just trying to pick some brains.

I've always been an outsider looking in when it comes to electric powertrains. I think they're super interesting and according to many they are the way of the future. However, my experience is entirely limited to internal combustion. The other day I was reading an article about electric conversion cars and the guy who wrote the article (who had experience building both internal combustion cars and electric cars) said that getting an electric build running is far easier than getting a gas build working correctly because of how much simpler electric powertrains are in comparison.

On one hand it might seem obvious; there are far fewer individual components to an electric powertrain versus an internal combustion one. Just look at any engine build - even with small engines like Predators - and there is a huge list of parts that need to be taken into account, fuel/air ratios, timing, clearances, tons of points of failure to be wary of, etc. But because the internal combustion engine is such an established piece of tech that people have been tinkering with for over 100 years, it doesn't seem that daunting to us now.

Most "vehicular-inclined" people are scared of electric powertrains simply because they are unfamiliar. Working with an engine and working with an electric motor are two completely different skill sets. That, and the fact that there is no electric equivalent of a site like GoPowerSports; there is a very limited aftermarket when it comes to electric powertrains. Most electric karts I've seen are using salvaged golf cart/forklift motors paired with general purpose controllers and sometimes custom made throttle setups. I can only imagine that getting a bunch of random components to play nice is a challenge. There's very little plug-and-play in comparison to something like a Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3, etc, kit for a Predator 212. I believe this will change as electric vehicles become more common, parts/batteries become less expensive, and more people start working with them. For proof of this just look at the RC world - there are tons of aftermarket motors, speed controllers, and batteries to hop up your electric RC car. But in the meantime, there is no equivalent market for full-size cars let alone go karts.

But that all being said, is it actually easier to get an electric kart running in comparison to a gas one? As someone who has only worked with engines they seem way more complicated. Browsing the electric projects section of this forum always reminds me of how little I know! :popcorn:
 

anickode

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I would be inclined to say no.

Buy engine
Open box
Remove engine
Bolt to go kart

Vs

Research all components
Buy motor
Buy speed controller
Realize how expensive battery backs are
Compromise on battery pack size
Buy all the little bits and pieces
Spend hours watching YouTube videos because the instructions are either missing or in Chinese
Put it all together
Realize after hours of troubleshooting that the throttle pot they sent with your speed controller isn't the right resistance
Order and Install new throttle pot
Order charger for battery pack
Drive go kart for 15 minutes
Park go kart for 3 hours to charge
Drive go kart for 15 minutes
Research bigger battery packs

And so on.

Yes, with gas engines there is also the never ending pursuit for more speed, but they are straightforward, easy to install, reliable, and cheap.

An electric motor in and of itself is far simpler than a gas engine, but when you factor everything else in, an engine is a MUCH simpler route to go. You take it out of the box preassembled, pretuned, and ready to run. Just add oil and fuel.

Unless you're starting with a bare block and doing a performance build from scratch.
 

mckutzy

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Right there is basically why I went gasoline, instead of electric....
Cost and simplicity....

At the time, I was more mechanically inclined to build a machine than wire up an electrical system and mate it to a machine...
Now Im a little older an now a bunch more... I still dont really understand the whole way of it... when it comes to electrical systems...
 

anickode

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If someone came out with say, a 48 volt 2500 watt drive system in a box... Motor, controller, and 120v multi-mode charger all contained in a box that could bolt in place of a typical ~200cc gasoline engine, and all you had to do was connect the included throttle pot and plug in a 48v battery pack of your choosing, that would be absolutely brilliant. Then just plug it in with an extension cord to charge. Simple, plug and play, and with enough power to legitimately replace the engine you took off. Biggest drawback would be the price point.
 

itsid

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uhm..
the charger is the problem here..
a charger for LiPos is unlike a Charger for other types of LiIon and a charger for LiIon is unlike a charger for NiMh or Lead acid..
sooo the charger should be part of the batpack not the motorkit.

and motorkits are already a thing (motor, controller, contactor and throtle in a set)
48V 2kW are quite easy to find on ebay and such
(all that boma stuff comes in various degrees of complete kits)

Problem there : the parts are mostly cheap to keep the price down..
a decent controller is easy to find though.

Next problem: throttle.. a foot throttle is pointless on an ATV or mini bike,
a tist throttle a pain to use on a kart.. so a throttle option would be needed
(I like pull string throttles best tbh... keeping the throttle pedal identical to the brake pedal for cosmetic reasons ;))
So that isn't always part of the Kit (but kits with twist throttle are available at least)

it's batteries and wiring that's up to you still.
And yes it's more important to take care than with a combustion engine..
which either runs or doesn't if incorrectly set up..
but doesn't get rendered useless in an instant in case you make a mistake.
(which could happen with an electric set up)

So yeah... a monkey can mount an engine,
it only takes about five more braincells to mount an electric motor.

As long as you can read you can do it.

'sid
 

SquidBonez

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If someone came out with say, a 48 volt 2500 watt drive system in a box... Motor, controller, and 120v multi-mode charger all contained in a box that could bolt in place of a typical ~200cc gasoline engine, and all you had to do was connect the included throttle pot and plug in a 48v battery pack of your choosing, that would be absolutely brilliant.

This is sort of what I was referring to. There is no real market for that kind of product yet. I know Top Kart is working on what they call their EV ION package, but that's supposed to be for race karts. Rotax has the Rotax THUNDeR, another karting-dedicated electric powertrain kit. But because of the high cost of EV components, lack of demand, and of course the battery tech bottleneck, there really isn't a market for this sort of thing...yet. We're a few decades too early it seems. The closest thing I can think of today is maybe if someone bought a used electric rental kart and put the powertrain in their own build.

This is sort of like the beginning of karting as a whole back in the 50s/60s when there was no dedicated "go kart engine" on the market. The first karts were all home-built frames and used modified chainsaw engines. But as time went on and demand grew small engine manufacturers began building dedicated kart engines. I'm just hoping for the day when we have the electric motor equivalent of a Predator 212 - something cheap and easy to set up. There are also manufacturers today who are building battery packs complete with BMS for use in all sorts of light vehicle applications; in the future it isn't hard to believe these will be much more common. I once again bring up RC cars as an example. For a while the only RC cars that you could seriously modify were the nitro-powered ones since most electric RC cars were really cheap AA battery-powered toys. But now there is a huge aftermarket dedicated to electric RC cars.

Time will tell. I'm happy with my gas engines, but I'm looking forward to the future of electric karts! If people are capable of building electric projects today - in a time where there is very little aftermarket to support it - imagine what will be possible in the future.
 

Bmr4Karts

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Very simple answer. No.

Electric is far more complex and about 5 times as expensive.
 

Functional Artist

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This is sort of what I was referring to. There is no real market for that kind of product yet. I know Top Kart is working on what they call their EV ION package, but that's supposed to be for race karts. Rotax has the Rotax THUNDeR, another karting-dedicated electric powertrain kit. But because of the high cost of EV components, lack of demand, and of course the battery tech bottleneck, there really isn't a market for this sort of thing...yet. We're a few decades too early it seems. The closest thing I can think of today is maybe if someone bought a used electric rental kart and put the powertrain in their own build.

This is sort of like the beginning of karting as a whole back in the 50s/60s when there was no dedicated "go kart engine" on the market. The first karts were all home-built frames and used modified chainsaw engines. But as time went on and demand grew small engine manufacturers began building dedicated kart engines. I'm just hoping for the day when we have the electric motor equivalent of a Predator 212 - something cheap and easy to set up. There are also manufacturers today who are building battery packs complete with BMS for use in all sorts of light vehicle applications; in the future it isn't hard to believe these will be much more common. I once again bring up RC cars as an example. For a while the only RC cars that you could seriously modify were the nitro-powered ones since most electric RC cars were really cheap AA battery-powered toys. But now there is a huge aftermarket dedicated to electric RC cars.

Time will tell. I'm happy with my gas engines, but I'm looking forward to the future of electric karts! If people are capable of building electric projects today - in a time where there is very little aftermarket to support it - imagine what will be possible in the future.

Um...
IMO the 48V 1,000W MY-1020 "motor kit" (~$100.00) is the "Predator" of the DIY electric karting world :thumbsup:
...ya, just gotta buy ~$100.00+ worth of "fuel" up front (aka the battery pack)

This "super powerful" little motor motivates many of my karts
…& depending on gearing, it can move your average kart to ~15 - 20MPH pretty easily

http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=37442
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjoJdzLyeYQ&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_l4g47Zt_YPcBOLSOtLXNqM

…& if ya double 'em up... !Arriba! :2guns:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPEo1-tdNy0&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_mE6WijMU-V1SSmDdEUpnlI

Then, (as Sid mentioned) to "step it up" there's also many larger motors available like the 48V 1,800W, 60V 2,000W & 72V 3,000W Boma's :cheers2:

The Atom kart has a 60V 2,000W Boma motor kit (~$200.00)
…& goes ~35MPH :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRjovx-BCJ4&t=914s
 

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Bmr4Karts

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Um...
IMO the 48V 1,000W MY-1020 "motor kit" (~$100.00) is the "Predator" of the DIY electric karting world :thumbsup:
...ya, just gotta buy ~$100.00+ worth of "fuel" up front (aka the battery pack)

This "super powerful" little motor motivates many of my karts
…& depending on gearing, it can move your average kart to ~15 - 20MPH pretty easily

http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=37442
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjoJdzLyeYQ&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_l4g47Zt_YPcBOLSOtLXNqM

…& if ya double 'em up... !Arriba! :2guns:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPEo1-tdNy0&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_mE6WijMU-V1SSmDdEUpnlI

Then, (as Sid mentioned) to "step it up" there's also many larger motors available like the 48V 1,800W, 60V 2,000W & 72V 3,000W Boma's :cheers2:

The Atom kart has a 60V 2,000W Boma motor kit (~$200.00)
…& goes ~35MPH :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRjovx-BCJ4&t=914s

Hey FA. I love all of your builds and have two 48v, two 60v, and one 72v my1020 sets now.

None of them compare to a $100 Predator 212 in simplicity or power. You're going to have to spend at least $1k for motor, controller and battery to match that and you would still very limited on runtime.

If I didn't have to worry about annoying my neighbors I would definitely build a gas kart instead.

Latest creation which is getting the 72v motor and 100 amp (continuous) controller. I was going to put the crazy motor on there, but I think its overkill for this chassis.
 

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SquidBonez

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Very cool builds guys. I wish my neighbors were as noise-tolerant, I could really benefit from a no-noise form of propulsion. Tired of getting the cops called on me.
 

Functional Artist

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Hey FA. I love all of your builds and have two 48v, two 60v, and one 72v my1020 sets now.

None of them compare to a $100 Predator 212 in simplicity or power. You're going to have to spend at least $1k for motor, controller and battery to match that and you would still very limited on runtime.

If I didn't have to worry about annoying my neighbors I would definitely build a gas kart instead.

Latest creation which is getting the 72v motor and 100 amp (continuous) controller. I was going to put the crazy motor on there, but I think its overkill for this chassis.

I'd have to disagree :huh:

I've had/built/run both & would NEVER NEVER go back to gas :ack2:

I think I've shown (several times) that ya don't need to spend $1,000.00 to build an electric "fun" kart :thumbsup:
...& I'm not talkin' about "puttering around" like a golf cart or a handi-cap scooter either :huh:

48V 1,000W- Torsk, Cotton Candy, !Arriba! & now the Lunar Rover (top speeds ~20-25 MPH)
48V 1,800W- Damien (top speed ~30 MPH)
60V 2,000W-Atom (top speed ~35 MPH)

IMO the difference between gassers & electric's, is like the difference between an ox (brute force)
...& a race horse (refined power) :cool:

Think, efficiency & control :cheers2:

Let me point out the pluses: (again)
No gas, to buy, or handle, or deal with, or wear (from sloshing around)
No toxic fumes (better for us & the environment)
No hot exhaust (to burn you or your kids
No pull starting (just flip a switch-n-go)
Lower maintenance (never have to change the spark plug or oil or replace the clutch)
Easier to "winterize" (don't have to use special fluids or procedures-drain fuel)
Quiet (don't pizz off the neighbors) :2guns:

Always remember
(see below) :D
 

Bmr4Karts

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Um...
IMO the 48V 1,000W MY-1020 "motor kit" (~$100.00) is the "Predator" of the DIY electric karting world :thumbsup:
...ya, just gotta buy ~$100.00+ worth of "fuel" up front (aka the battery pack)

This "super powerful" little motor motivates many of my karts
…& depending on gearing, it can move your average kart to ~15 - 20MPH pretty easily

http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=37442
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjoJdzLyeYQ&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_l4g47Zt_YPcBOLSOtLXNqM

…& if ya double 'em up... !Arriba! :2guns:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPEo1-tdNy0&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_mE6WijMU-V1SSmDdEUpnlI

Then, (as Sid mentioned) to "step it up" there's also many larger motors available like the 48V 1,800W, 60V 2,000W & 72V 3,000W Boma's :cheers2:

The Atom kart has a 60V 2,000W Boma motor kit (~$200.00)
…& goes ~35MPH :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRjovx-BCJ4&t=914s

Fun doesn't mean fast. If you want to go 35mph or less then electric isn't too bad. $400-500 all in for motor, controller, and some heavy SLA batteries.

That same money has you going 50mph+ with gas and the ability to run for hours as long as the gas can isn't empty.

Electric is great for tight tracks with quick races. Rental shop electric karts run 10 minute heats and have to charge before they can go out again. Long term a business can save money via lower maintenance cost, but the upfront cost are huge.

My 50mph kart was done about as cheap as you can. $500 motor (deal from ME), $500 controller from Aliexpress, $500 used lithium battery. This gets me a 50mph top speed with good acceleration and a 20 minute run time. 3-4 times as much as a 50mph gas engine.
 

Functional Artist

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Fun doesn't mean fast. If you want to go 35mph or less then electric isn't too bad. $400-500 all in for motor, controller, and some heavy SLA batteries.

That same money has you going 50mph+ with gas and the ability to run for hours as long as the gas can isn't empty.

Electric is great for tight tracks with quick races. Rental shop electric karts run 10 minute heats and have to charge before they can go out again. Long term a business can save money via lower maintenance cost, but the upfront cost are huge.

My 50mph kart was done about as cheap as you can. $500 motor (deal from ME), $500 controller from Aliexpress, $500 used lithium battery. This gets me a 50mph top speed with good acceleration and a 20 minute run time. 3-4 times as much as a 50mph gas engine.

Um...IMO too fast, isn't fun, it's just dangerous :huh:
…& it's not really a fair comparison

Apples to Oranges
1.) Your comparing a 6.5 HP gas engine (~$100.00) that has a 1" output shaft & weighs ~38 lbs.
to
a 48V 1,000W (~1.3 HP) MY-1020 electric motor (~$100.00) that has a ~10mm output shaft & weighs ~15 lbs.
He He imagine a kart with a 1 HP gas engine :roflol:
Physics
2.) A (~$100.00) 6.5HP Predator will not propel a kart to 50 MPH
...you'd probably need a 8 HP 301 (~$250.00) or even bigger, depending on the kart
(which would be an even worse comparison) :rolleyes:

Practicality
3.) I think from your experience, you know, going ~50 MPH on a Dingo (or any average yard kart) is NOT a good idea
...their steering, brakes & even the frame is just NOT designed for those kinda speeds &/or the dynamic stress/forces that come with those speeds

* Also, where does one "safely" run a kart @ 50 MPH?
Hopefully NOT thru a neighborhood
...what if a pedestrian or car crosses their path, or hit a curb or even a good size rock...devastating :ack2:
 

Bmr4Karts

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Um...IMO too fast, isn't fun, it's just dangerous :huh:
…& it's not really a fair comparison

Apples to Oranges
1.) Your comparing a 6.5 HP gas engine (~$100.00) that has a 1" output shaft & weighs ~38 lbs.
to
a 48V 1,000W (~1.3 HP) MY-1020 electric motor (~$100.00) that has a ~10mm output shaft & weighs ~15 lbs.
He He imagine a kart with a 1 HP gas engine :roflol:
Correct, 5 times the HP for the same amount of money not including battery cost. Gas is a lot cheaper for the power.


Physics
2.) A (~$100.00) 6.5HP Predator will not propel a kart to 50 MPH
...you'd probably need a 8 HP 301 (~$250.00) or even bigger, depending on the kart I stated that a $400-500 engine would get you to 50mph (this includes engine modifications)
(which would be an even worse comparison) :rolleyes:

Practicality
3.) I think from your experience, you know, going ~50 MPH on a Dingo (or any average yard kart) is NOT a good idea
...their steering, brakes & even the frame is just NOT designed for those kinda speeds &/or the dynamic stress/forces that come with those speeds I agree, that's what I'm converting to a race kart chassis but I do have hydraulic race kart brakes on my Dingo

* Also, where does one "safely" run a kart @ 50 MPH?
Hopefully NOT thru a neighborhood
...what if a pedestrian or car crosses their path, or hit a curb or even a good size rock...devastating :ack2:My subdivision is incomplete so I have empty roads to drive on. Once it is complete in a couple years I'll have to figure something else out.
...

I drive a little slower in the populated areas. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBrdvdIvGmE
 

Flyinhillbilly

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It’s internal combustion for me, and always will be because I like that I can pour fuel in and go, no waiting on batteries to charge, and I enjoy the sounds that a built up internal combustion engine makes.
I would challenge any of you electric guys to build anything that would keep up with my $2000 motor in a 20 lap race at the same price point. With the current technology (pun intended) it can’t be done.
 

Functional Artist

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It’s internal combustion for me, and always will be because I like that I can pour fuel in and go, no waiting on batteries to charge, and I enjoy the sounds that a built up internal combustion engine makes.
I would challenge any of you electric guys to build anything that would keep up with my $2000 motor in a 20 lap race at the same price point. With the current technology (pun intended) it can’t be done.

"It’s internal combustion for me"
Have ya ever "test drove" a Tesla Type S :rolleyes:
…0 to 100 in like a couple of seconds :wai:
...if you haven't you should :2guns:

"waiting on batteries to charge"
You don't have to wait for the batteries to charge
...supposed to charge 'em overnight so, their "ready" for the next day

"pour fuel in & go"
With electrics, ya can just change the "fuel tank", instead of refilling it
...kinda like swapin' an empty gas tank for a full one

"challenge"
Well, I'm not really into racing :auto:
...but, I like challenges :thumbsup:

So, lets discuss this further :cheers2:

What's the specs on one of your $2,000.00 "engines"?
...horse power, RPM's etc.

What kinda top speeds?
…& how long are your laps?
 

Whitetrashrocker

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I live under a rock, but I don't know of any electric motor sports. NHRA, NASCAR, IMCA, motorcross, sprints, formula1, trophy truck, rock bouncers......

Are there some out there yes but not a full class worth that I know of.
 
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JTSpeedDemon

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Ohh boy, this debate again.

I like ICE for the same reasons as Nate, plus there's something magical about reviving a long lost engine. Plus there's a TON of cross compatibility(I doubt you could use an electric tiller motor on a kart very effectively, Kevin, but we can use tiller motors all we want).
And it does take a lot of skill to upgrade and build these engines, especially if you start with a beat up engine with issues.
And there's also upgradability. Electric will never be as readily upgradeable as gas, and batteries wear out, plus are heavy and expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate e-karts, but they're not my thing. :thumbsup:


EDIT - I posted this awhile back, and I think it sums up the debate pretty well, so I'll quote it here:
......
Personally I'm a diehard gas-burner, I just love engines way more than electric motors. I'll list a few general pros and cons of each:

Small engine


  • Pros:
  • Can be upgraded rather easily
  • Virtually no electrical parts or wiring(unless it's a motorcycle engine)
  • They do sound cool!
  • You can just refuel and keep riding when you run out of gas

    Cons:
  • A lot of moving parts that *can* break, this can be avoided by picking a good engine
  • Gas and oil can get expensive
  • Can be very loud when modified

Electric Motor


  • Pros:
  • Charging is very cheap
  • Silent, so it's hard to annoy the neighbors with it
  • VERY FEW moving parts

    Cons:
  • Might take a while to charge
  • You *might* end up having a hard time figuring out wiring if it's not a plug and play system
  • Cannot be upgraded much
  • Might be a little more expensive
  • Batteries are heavy and bulky

......

As you can see, the pros of the engine are basically the cons of the electric motor, and vice versa. It's really up to you. :thumbsup:
 

Functional Artist

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I live under a rock, but I don't know of any electric motor sports. NHRA, NASCAR, IMCA, motorcross, sprints, formula1, trophy truck, rock bouncers......

Are there some out there yes but not a full class worth that I know of.

Not yet... :thumbsup:
...but, look around, everything IS goin electric
(Cadillac, Volvo, Jaguar, Mustang (Mach-E) etc.) :2guns:

Progress people, progress...:mad2:

First we walked
...then, rode on horses
…then, rode in buggies, motivated by horses (horse power)
(but, they sh*t all over the ground)
…& then, moved up to cars, motivated by internal combustion engines
(but, they sh*t all over...everything)

Natural evolution,
...electric motivation IS the future :sifone:
...Tesla races, anyone? :cheers2:
 
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