Which of these motors is best?

[weirdarmadillo]

Now that I have decided to build an engine powered cooler cart with a motor, I don't know which motor to use. I would like to use what I have already.
1. A treadmill motor from a pro form treadmill.
2.65 hp (1.5 hp cont. Duty at 95 vdc). 21.4 amps. INS. class H. 25c ambient. Open const. External fan
( I don't know what all that means, it's on the label.)
The treadmill works great and hauls at 10 mph.

2. Razor e 100 scooter
100 watt motor
Run at 24-48 watts

3. Car starter
I wouldn't mind picking one of these up for $20 if it's worth it.

I have 4 12 volt motorcyle batteries and a car battery available to use.

It would have to haul about 150 lbs, at least 8 mph.
Any suggestions?

 

[Qmavam]

Now that I have decided to build an engine powered cooler cart with a motor, I don't know which motor to use.
1. A treadmill motor from a pro form treadmill.
2.65 hp (1.5 hp cont. Duty at 95 vdc). 21.4 amps. INS. class H. 25c ambient. Open const. External fan

2. 100 watt motor
Run at 24-48 watts

3. Car starter

Any suggestions?

The treadmill motor is rated at 95 volts so if you use 48 volts
It will only put out about 0.4hp to .66hp but should last a long time.

The 100 watt motor on 48 volts will put out about 0.5 hp
but probably won't last long.

The starter motor, I don't know, they aren't made for continuous use, especially at 2 times the voltage. I don't see starters used a lot, so I suspect some problems with them.
I'd go with the treadmill motor.
Mike

 

[weirdarmadillo]

The treadmill motor sounds pretty good then. I'll be happy with +/- .5 hp. Would it be possible to use the electronics from the guts of the treadmill for speed control? It also has an auto incline , maybe that could be used for added affect?

I also have 2 motors with original plastic gearboxes on them from powerwheel jeep if that counts...

 

[motor_head]

geared to slow

 

[freakboy]

then rip the gear boxes off. and mabey just use them. and i thought u were going to use that 8 hp engine? or was that another guy?

 

[Qmavam]

The treadmill motor sounds pretty good then. I'll be happy with +/- .5 hp. Would it be possible to use the electronics from the guts of the treadmill for speed control?

Interesting Idea!
One possible problem is the board may (probably) has some
low voltage control circuits and you would need to find a way
to supply them. I don't find any schematics on the net but I did find this block diagram from an instructible.

http://www.instructables.com/id/S0EJU7LFMEA25WW/

I f you look at the power transformer you can see it has
two secondaries, I suspect one is low voltage for the circuitry and the other is to PWM the motor. So you would need to measure that lower voltage after it is converted to dc. Then find a way to reduce your battery voltage down to equal the measured voltage.
It is all very doable if you have a little knowledge in electronics
and put in the effort.
Mike

 

[weirdarmadillo]

then rip the gear boxes off. and mabey just use them. and i thought u were going to use that 8 hp engine? or was that another guy?

Yup, same guy. Im defininetaly putting the 7hp in it. I think you had the idea of an engine and a motor? Im just going from there.

Interesting Idea!
One possible problem is the board may (probably) has some
low voltage control circuits and you would need to find a way
to supply them. I don't find any schematics on the net but I did find this block diagram from an instructible.

http://www.instructables.com/id/S0EJU7LFMEA25WW/

I f you look at the power transformer you can see it has
two secondaries, I suspect one is low voltage for the circuitry and the other is to PWM the motor. So you would need to measure that lower voltage after it is converted to dc. Then find a way to reduce your battery voltage down to equal the measured voltage.
It is all very doable if you have a little knowledge in electronics
and put in the effort.
Mike

I have no knowledge of electronic circuits and such, but i tried thinkin of what that all means.

Are you saying that one side goes through the circuitry for the heart monitor, speed sensor, etc; and the 2nd side goes to PWM the motor?

PWM is speed control, right?

Along the lines of voltage, the treadmill converts the 110 from the wall into a lower voltage for the circuit and motor?

If I were to keep the guts unmodified and simply hooked the power cord to a battery or two instead of the wall, would it work?


Sorry if the rambling doesnt make sense but im just tryin to figure it out.

 

[freakboy]

oh alright they hybrid cooler kart so u can gun it to the store then put around with the electric ok. and yeah that was me i wasnt sure if you were gona keep usin the 7 horse.

 

[oscaryu1]

Isn't treadmill motors AC? You'd need a pretty **** big inverter.

I wouldn't go with any of them. 750W or 1000 watt 36V motor running at 48V is whatcha want.

 

[Qmavam]

Are you saying that one side goes through the circuitry for the heart monitor, speed sensor, etc; and the 2nd side goes to PWM the motor?

I think the one I showed has a low voltage (5v?, 12v?) that is used to power the circuit that develops and controls the higher voltage (95v?) that is PWMed to control the motor.

PWM is speed control, right?

PWM is -pulse width modulation-, it is a way to control motor speed that does not waste energy as heat. Look it up there is plenty of info about how it works.

Along the lines of voltage, the treadmill converts the 110 from the wall into a lower voltage for the circuit and motor?

The transformer will stepup or stepdown an A.C. voltage to a higher or lower voltage. With multiple windings you can have multiple voltages. Most circuits use D.C., so after you stepdown the voltage you use diodes to change the voltage from A.C. to D.C. (A)lternating (C)urrent and (D)irect (C)urrent

If I were to keep the guts unmodified and simply hooked the power cord to a battery or two instead of the wall, would it work?

Nope, because the transformer only works with A.C voltage.

Mike

 

[weirdarmadillo]

Ok, I'm pretty sure I know what you mean. I need to measure how many volts are coming out of the transformer. Then I need to remove the transformer and run my batteries through the system at the same voltage that the transformer would have supplied.

Thanks again for helping me understand all of this; I learn somthing new every day on this forum!

 

[weirdarmadillo]

Isn't treadmill motors AC? You'd need a pretty **** big inverter.

.

After some research, I do belive the treadmill motor is a DC motor with armature-voltage DC motor control.

 

[Qmavam]

Ok, I'm pretty sure I know what you mean. I need to measure how many volts are coming out of the transformer. Then I need to remove the transformer and run my batteries through the system at the same voltage that the transformer would have supplied.

Thanks again for helping me understand all of this; I learn something new every day on this forum!

Ya, that's close, but you need to go a little farther into the circuit for the voltage measurement..
The transformer secondary connects to the board and delivers A.C., then (4) diodes on the board convert it to D.C. You need to measure that D.C. voltage and then you can you can use something as simple as a resistor to drop your battery voltage to match your measured D.C.
Look up fullwave bridge. It's what make the A.C. into D.C.
Mike

 

[weirdarmadillo]

Ok, I looked up a fullwave bridge, know what it is now.

I took a close look at the treadmill and it has two circuit boards. One is visibly marked as " motor speed control..." Now going off memory, the motor had a few wires going to that circuit. It seems to me I only need that board. Not the other one. Does that sound about right?

I'll try to post a picture tommorrow.

 

[Qmavam]

Ok, I looked up a fullwave bridge, know what it is now.

Ya, kinda neat how the diodes just direct the flow of current so it
only goes one direction. There are a couple other schemes to do this, but they are not important now.

One is visibly marked as " motor speed control..." Now going off memory, the motor had a few wires going to that circuit. It seems to me I only need that board. Not the other one. Does that sound about right?

Probably, it sure would be helpful if you could get a schematic from the company. (hint, hint)
The few wires has me wondering. It could be 2 are for motor power and 1 or 2 more are a sensor to sense rpm of the motor. But, that is just a somewhat educated guess.
Mike

 

[weirdarmadillo]

im attempting to upload pics of the schematic...

If i can use the treadmill guts the calibration mode sounds like i can speed up the motor.

Would it be efficient to use an inverter?


Thanks for the help so far...

 

[Qmavam]

I looked over the wiring diagram, I would first figure out where
the 12v is made.
Is it developed on the MC-60 SCR motor controller board,
or does it come from the the PB-2.4i power board? You can probably just disconnect that connector and measure the voltage from L to H on the MC-60, if you have about 12v that's good. If it's not 12V your going to need to supply the voltage.
If the 12v is developed on the MC-60 board then I would put a 5k pot on the H W L connector. (ask about that if you need)
To adjust motor speed the voltage on pin W (of the connector labeled H W L on the power board) is varied between 0 and 12 volts.
On the MC-60 board you see AC1 and AC2, 120v ac will be applied here. However you see it has a thermal switch for safety.
One side of the AC line will be connected to the thermal switch and the other side of the switch goes to AC1. The other side of the AC line goes to AC2 on the MC-60 board.

Disclaimer;
Remember I don't have a complete schematic and even if I did
I might not have all the knowledge needed to tell you how to do it. Don't do any modifications that your not comfortable doing.

An inverted has an efficiency like anything else so you will lose,
I'm guessing 5 to 15% of the input power.

I think the best starting point is to remove the H W L connector
from the MC-60 and see if you have 12v between H and L on the MC-60 board.
Proceed at your own risk.
Mike

 

[Qmavam]

I have a had a second thought about this whole idea!!!
The MC-60 board says ""SCR"" Motor Controller.
An SCR must have 0 volts on the anode to turn off,
(no current flow)
See; http://www.kilowattclassroom.com/Archive/SCRArticle.pdf

So the circuit probably uses pulsating dc to drive the motor,
see; http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ps_rectifiers.html
Note the third waveform, it goes to 0 volts each cycle.

and phase control for speed adjustment.
See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_fired_controllers
Note the blue line is the position that you turn on the SCR.
If you turn it on early in the cycle, you get full power to the motor.
If you turn it on late you get very little power to the motor.

The point is your batteries won't be pulsating DC, so it probably won't work.
Sorry, Mike

 

[jad]

The diagram indicates a DC motor so powering it with batteries should work; the running time will depend on the motor load when actually propelling the vehicle and on the amp hour rating of the batteries you use. You will be not be able to use the motor controller board with a DC power supply ( batteries ) as they are only for use from an AC supply. They pulse the AC on and off and convert to it to pulsating DC to control the motor speed. Don’t waste your time on the motor control board, (MC-60) SCR’s are not suited for this application, a device called an IGBT (used in cordless drills for speed control) would probably work but would have to be rated at sufficient power to handle the load current and power dissipated.
A simple speed control could be made by made by tapping off voltages from your series connected batteries and using switches for a low, med, high, or such. You could try different voltages to see what works under load. The switches would have to be configured so as not to short out the batteries in any position.
And of course you will also need to have suitable speed reduction between the motor shaft and drive wheels. Some of these motors spin in excess of 6000 rpm at full power.

As with everything in life, and especially anything you read on the internet, the above is subject to verification. Good luck with your project.

 

[weirdarmadillo]

WOW! i didnt realize its been so long since ive last been on! funny how that happens...

I had a little time last weekend to tinker again with the treadmill.

i hooked the multimeter to the pos and neg leads to the motor to see what the motor runs at. What i found is that for every mph you set the treadmill for, the voltage changes accordingly: 1 mph = 10volts; 2 mph = 20volts; all the way to 10 mph = 95volts

then i connected the motor to a 12 volt battery. the motor spun (silently) but had almost no tourque. at 10volts from the treadmill it spins (noisily) with loads of tourque.

Does this have somthing to do with the armature? Or maybe the pulating dc? What exactly does the armature do?

Thanks, Roman