Thoughts on a swap ... 2 cycle 60cc Parilla to LO206 / animal

[sikbrik]

Looking for opinions (dangerous, I know) on a swap from our existing Parilla Mini Swift 60cc race kart, which is being modified into a fun yard kart (won't be raced.)

My son wants LED headlights and taillights and would like to retain key start. I've seen that the Briggs engines can handle electric start with factory parts and alternator, as well.

We could use more torque for the 13x6.5 tires, up from 10x4.5. Got a taller gear (97t vs old 82t) and that's fine but it still takes a bit for any real grunt.

The chassis and axle can handle 4 stroke mounting...the seat cross brace is not a clearance issue. I'm thinking we could drop back down to a mid 70 tooth sprocket with a 10 or 11 tooth clutch for more clearance and the torque would still be good but maybe I'm wrong. His top speed might be affected... currently it spins 11,000rpm and does over 40mph. We'd be fine with low 30s, I think...again, no racing, just fun. It'd be nice to accelerate more quickly vs top speed.

Another reason for the swap is maintenance, parts availability, smoke (he hates the idea of unnecessary pollution), and noise (these things are really quiet compared to the Parilla) to keep nosy neighbors away.

Electric is outside of the budget. So now, I'm interested in thoughts and considerations to keep in mind with this swap. Thanks!

 

[J.S.@SMS]

My suggestion (if it would fit, which it likely would) is a Duromax XP7HPE. It comes with e-start (XP7HPE) 200 through Home Depot or not (XP7HP) 150 through Home Depot (not available in stores). And last I checked it's a Honda clone (lots of performance parts). And it has 7hp.

Or you could get a Tillotson 212 hemi with e-start ($250 on gopowersports). It comes with 10hp, which is likely too much.

 

[itsid]

My suggestion (if it would fit, which it likely would) is a Duromax XP7HPE. It comes with e-start (XP7HPE) 200 through Home Depot or not (XP7HP) 150 through Home Depot (not available in stores). And last I checked it's a Honda clone (lots of performance parts). And it has 7hp.

Or you could get a Tillotson 212 hemi with e-start ($250 on gopowersports). It comes with 10hp, which is likely too much.

I'm terribly sorry, but this is the LEAST educated reply one could ever imagine...
You have no fricking idea what a parilla engine is, have you?

Sheesh...

NOw..
1) if the kart came with a 60cc parilla, it is unlikely a four stroke engine fits at all
(we might be able to get an idea with the help of pics... but you'd have to testfit and measure in the end)

But those are for Cadet karts usually (smaller than adult size)
and a two stroke chassis might not take a four stroke engine because of
a) size of the engine
b) chain routing issues (obstructed by a third bearing, or seat strut)
c) lack of matching motor mounts for the frame rails
And even if you think you can rule out one issue.. what about the other two.. and worst the combination of them all?
Again we'd need pictures to get an idea.

Now the iame 60cc are all within the same ballpark of power nominally
then the four stroke 200 cc
(I think stock 7 , properly blueprinted up to 10 horses IIRC)
but with very different rpms and agility levels.
So it would feel like a massive downgrade if you replace a well maintained 60cc parilla
(what is it? Gazelle? Swift?) with a 200cc four stroke engine.

And yes, you certainly have to cut your top speeds, by how much I can't tell yet
so it's hard to make a comment on that (7:1 seems very reasonable though)

if by chance you have any four stroke 200cc engine laying around
you can testfit on the chassis to see what's going on..
if not you can quickly mock a cardboard dummy together from engine size specs
you find in the manuals (Honda, Lifan, Briggs.. doesn't matter if one fit's the other will as well!)
poke a dowel rod through for the crankshaft position/length
and see where the chain ends up on the axle (or IF) .. is the axle keyed at that spot?
Some axles just aren't sooo no sprocket unless you buy a new axle

'sid

 

[J.S.@SMS]

I'm not trying to bash the 60cc's but I would still take a predator 212, as there are enough performance parts to get one to 9k rpm and 20+hp for around $1000 (complete build), based on my estimates (which could be off). Or there is a stage three kit for these that costs about $365, that produces a minimum of 15hp.

And then there's the Parilla mini swift 60cc blueprinted engine which costs about $2700.

So in my opinion one can do more with a predator 212. Plus you can say that you built that engine.

Again this is only my opinion. It is your kart, so do what you are comfortable doing. And if you want to hear a stage 4 predator run, skip to 17:00 on the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqaRUxkfGEM

 

[itsid]

Really... a loud eninge isn't necessarily a powerfull enigne much less a fast one

And while you can certainly spend a ton of money to freshen a 200cc clone up
(I doubt you can get 20+ with stage kits though.. would love to see that dyno chart)
I know there's a monstrosity built gx200 (real deal no chinese clone) on YT wich I believe pushes 28 horses IIRC that is certainly way past the 1k dollars spent line.

Pointless, very much so... not even outlaw races would allow that thing on the track..
just for some serious braggign rights. (which is a valid point for some )

Well, in any case, this is not trying to be a race kart
(otherwise it would have to stick to a particular engine.. likely the 60cc it came with
and all your comments would be void anyways)
So there is no need in spending 1k dollares for a built engine (much less 2000 for a fresh iame 60cc of sorts)

It's okay to spend 250 bucks for a 7horse with lighting coils to get the kid happy
and maybe some mild free mods (more air, less governor )
just to kick it up a tiny bit.

Certainly enough for some kid's fun in the backyard.
(in fact enough for some adult's fun in the back yard as well )

But whatever.. it's still the worse engine performance wise, much worse
(there's a good reason those small engines cost 2k+ compared to 100 for a new predator )
while both being around'ish 7hp

BUT the most important part is not what enigne is cheaper
(cheapest is always the thing you already have, no?
so even a 100 dollar stock predator is more expensive than the 60cc he has.)

It's about what engine can be at all mounted to the kart..
we can't tell yet for sure

But on a Cadet kart it's likely not going to work anyways..
no industrial four stroke will fit properly..

There's a good reason there are specially made four stroke chassis for such engines...

And until it's made sure that he can even install a industrial engine,
it's utterly pointless to discuss the benefits of a cheaper highly modified four stroke.

'sid

 

[J.S.@SMS]

I agree with what you said. And yes, just because an engine is loud doesn't mean that its powerful. However in the video below you will see that it powered an American Express 2.0 chassis to 71mph (around 12:30 and no they didn't make it to 88). And as he said, pictures would help quite a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKOeuY6ICUc

 

[Tpdingo]

I've done a 49cc to 79cc swap. It was a total pain in the ***, it had total crap acceleration, was burning the clutchon acceleration and was worse than the original 49cc.

2 stroke karts are a whole different platform than 4 strokes and trying to switch it is probably a dead deal.

 

[sikbrik]

Thanks, everyone. Opinions is what I was after and I'm glad to have them all.

It's an Italkart cadet V chassis. It's available in both 2 stroke and 4...axle is keyed for both, euro mount for 4 stroke is available, chainline appears to work but I agree I can't know without mocking up. That said, a local racer says he's done the exact thing with an LO206 for a spec class...I haven't personally seen it.

I'm thinking maybe we just gear down with a jackshaft for now, to get some better acceleration, and revisit when it blows up.

Oh, it's a 60cc Mini-swift, unrestricted for the normal Junior class, not the restricted pipe of the kid kart version. I think it's rated at 6.5hp and not much torque.

 

[itsid]

oh that's a tiny kart isn't it
(not even 130cm total length or 60cm chassis width)
And the bad news.. officially there is no 4stroke motormount for the 28mm chassis rails.
(at least not in their parts list)
the smallest motormount for four strokes (from italkart) is for 30mm rails.

Luckily no third bearing which makes it indeed easier.
but you would have to ask the fellow racer (who made the conversion) for details.
Namely what motor mount he got, what clutch he installed and most of all what clutch guard.
Since I mean, you know how tiny that engine is really,
and how comperatively hefty a Lo206 is..
And since the clutch sits on the opposite side, it's dangerously close to the seat
(and worse the kid!)
So there needs to be a solid enough separation between kiddo's arm and waist and the rotating angry steel

I'm not sure I'd allow that engine to blow up...
again: tiny parts and rotating at high speeds.. a serious mishap can cause injuries or worse!
So do your best to maintain that engine in order to keep it from locking up at speed.

The most important part in ALL karting activities (fun or race)
is to keep everyone alive and (ideally) unharmed!

An exploding high rpm engine 4 inches of your squishy parts ... just no!

IDK.. maybe get a shoe box (boots ideally) and see how close and quick you can make a cardboard engine placeholder...
and again: ask that guy for his conversion details to know what you're messing with

'sid

PS for all I know the LO206 doesn't have lighting coils.. so kiddo would still have no lights on his kart...

 

[sikbrik]

Thanks! We keep the little 60 in good shape. Certainly don't want 11k explosions near the kids! I'm only 5'8" and I can fit relatively comfortably (not with his seat mounted, of course, but leg length isn't an issue, it's more my width that's a problem.) It's not nearly due for a freshening yet. Really just considering what to do when that time comes. I have considered a 100cc 2 stroke as an alternate upgrade. Usually can find older model 100cc rebuilt around me for $400, give or take. Probably a big power jump, if needed.
We're running a 9.7:1 ratio now. Up-side to adding a jackshaft is I could run a tiny belt-driven tractor alternator for lights but then more power loss. I guess maybe we'll even consider just buying a proper kart for fun and keep this thing as-is.

 

[sikbrik]

Haven't been back to the track yet.

It looks like CRG makes a 28mm Briggs mount for Euro rail spacing but I don't know if it'd fit this specific small kart. Either way, likely not going that route for now but thought I'd mention it.

I did look at ways to either Fab or buy a clutch cover, which doesn't seem too bad, and (hypothetically) I'd move the whole works back closer to the axle for better seat clearance.

That's all bench-racing though...

Question: Does anyone know if a specific torque converter would work on a 2 stroke? Mounting wouldn't be straightforward but probably not extreme fabrication. RPM would seem to be the enemy.

Just mulling over options other than jackshaft, for improvements in both ground clearance and gear reduction versatility.

Jackshaft still makes it easier to run a small alternator for lights but I'm even thinking a 2nd battery, one for starting and one for lights, keeps it simpler and I just charge overnight.

 

[itsid]

for all I know you can get the serie 30 to engage at 4600 rpm
So it might work..

BUT you need a crankshaft of 3/4" (which isn't the case for all I know)

so yeah

'sid