Starting a diesel that had water in it

[robbie]

I posted this on a tractor forum, but it's not getting a lot of action there. I know there are some guys here who have a lot of experience with tractors and diesel engine repair, so I'm wondering what any of you would do in this situation. Just don't tell me to google anything....

My sister had a John Deere 410 backhoe sitting in a field for 4 years. It had water in the engine even though there was a rain cap on the pipe, so I had it hauled home without starting it. I drained about a gallon of crystal clear water out of the crankcase along with the oil. I left the drain open for 2 days and then I put new oil in it. I pulled the injectors and used compressed air to blow out all the moisture I could get out. Then I put some oil in each cylinder and put it all back together.
Using plenty of ether and a fully charged battery, I can"t get it to fire. I was thinking that if there is even a little bit of moisture in the cylinders it would absorb compression heat and not allow the cylinder to get hot enough to burn the ether. It also occurs to me that the cylinders or rings may be damaged, leading to poor compression, although that doesn"t seem like it would be a huge problem because I"ve seen some really worn out engines start with ether.

I was thinking of pouring a few ounces of oil down the intake to increase compression. Is there a product I can use to get rid of residual moisture without pulling the head off? I don"t want to pull the head, but I will if I have to. If this were your project, what would you do next?

 

[fowler]

When u pulled the injectors did u break them down or just blow the lines out

Have u bled them out

Crank the engine over with the lines cranked at the injectors
Wait for fuel to flow out then close them

Does it have a glow circuit?
Is it working?

Is there water in the fuel

Drain the tank
Separate the water/replace the fuel
Bleed the system and try again

I don't have experience with this exact model but if u start messing with some types of injection systems u can really screw the settings up

If water sat in the fuel system then it could have corroded the sealing surfaces
It is also likely u have large amounts of corrosion in the engine it's self

If it were my engine with that much water I'd at least be pulling the sump if not the head

Have u got some pics of the engine
As much for interest

EDIT
I think u have a VE pump
Does the injector lines run in a circle from the pump
If the lines run in a line (an inline pump)
Then make sure all the linkages are free
These types of pumps have a rail inside them that controls the fuel
When left for a long time they can seize up
Unfortunately they seize at full fuel and have ruined many engines over time

Make sure the throttle is actually connected to something
Also make sure the cutoff solenoid is receiving power
Or the cutoff switch is opening up

EDIT
EDIT

Oh yea, should be the first question
Why was it abandoned in the first place

 

[robbie]

The reason why it was sitting in a field is because they bought it to build a house, but then circumstances changed and they didn't build anything. It's an old machine that's seen a lot of use, but it was running well four years ago.

I didn't do anything to the fuel injectors besides remove them and put them back. I didn't do anything to the fuel lines. I pulled the main fuel line where it comes from the tank and attaches to the first stage fuel pump. Fuel was clean.

There are no glow plugs. I've been trying to think of a good way to heat the engine up for easier starting....

It has the type of injector pump with the lines coming off in a circle. If the pump is trashed I can take it to a very good diesel shop in Kansas City for rebuilding. John Deere backhoes are extremely popular around here, so it should be pretty affordable.

Even if the injector pump is bad and the engine is not getting fuel I should be able to start it with ether. My first question is why I don't even hear a little pop, and the answer has to be that it isn't hot enough, meaning that there isn't enough compression or the heat is being robbed by moisture, or something else I haven't thought of.

I noticed that the intake manifold had very good suction 1/4 of the time while cranking, and the other 3 were pretty good. Maybe I should pull the valve cover and make sure the valves are seating all the way.

If the cylinders and rings are trashed then I have to rebuild the engine, but I don't have the cash for that right now. So if I can get it to start and use it for a few little projects, what's the worst that can happen? If it's already ruined, how can I hurt it?

 

[robbie]

I just cranked it again, and there was very good suction at the manifold. It seemed that one cylinder was slightly weaker than the other three, but it was very good overall. I put a bit of oil in it and sprayed quite a bit of ether, and still no fire.

 

[Doc Sprocket]

I have access to an old 1962 Fordson Super Dexta that is in dire need of a rebuild. the rings are bad enough that if it sits for more than a couple months without use, it will not start. The residual oil on the cylinder walls dries up, and it doesn't have sufficient compression.

I have to fire a LOT of oil into the intake to get 'er going again. So- what I'm getting at is, you might want to try more oil.

 

[fowler]

Have u bled the system yet
More oil may help as well
Unlikely it will work till then

U can keep pumping either in but there's no guarantee the piston will stop at the bottom of its stroke
Get it running off deisel

Also try a blow torch in front of the intake
It warms the in going air

Have u removed the air filter or are u spraying either onto it?

 

[robbie]

I removed the rubber air hose from the manifold to check the suction.

Yesterday I opened the fuel line where it connects to the injector and saw that it was getting fuel there, so it looks like the pump is good. Now I'm starting to see white smoke in the exhaust.

 

[fowler]

White smoke is in burnt fuel

Good

Try heat the ongoing air

Ie blow torch

 

[robbie]

I put a huge battery on the backhoe, floored the gas pedal, put oil down its throat, and cranked it. I can tell the difference with and without oil. It slows down a bit with oil, then it goes away. It blows white diesel smoke. But it doesn't even cough. I think this thing is shot.

 

[fowler]

have u tried heat
look for a cold start lever somewhere in the machine in on the side of the pump

the lever will be on the bottom on the side

can u get a video of it turning over

there's no point flooring it
the pump is sat at full full until the governor kicks in
i find it funny watching people start old diesels and pumping the pedal
its not achieving anything

Im sure it will start eventually

 

[robbie]

Yeah, I'm not stupid enough to think it has an accelerator pump like a carburetor, but I didn't think about the metering being set all the way up during cranking. I have an old McCormick International tractor that definitely benefits from being set at full throttle when cranking. It makes a lot more smoke, and it actually starts, unlike when the lever is set at idle.

I think I covered every detail to create an optimal starting situation, and it didn't even pop a little bit. I didn't heat the air, though. The air temperature was 90 degrees when I was cranking it, and the sun was shining on the engine in the early afternoon. I'm not sure I want it to start with supplemental heat. It's getting to be fall, and if I can't make it start now, I don't think there's much hope for using it this winter without a rebuild. I think the rings are rusted away.

 

[fowler]

Maybe rusted out
If the rings are acctually rusted them the whole thing is likely stuffed

Can u do a leak down test

Set each cylinder to TDC then pull out the injector and some way seal it off with an air fitting on there
Usually I'd have a dummy injector but I don't know where u will get one unless u mod one of your existing ones

Put 30psi in it and see how long it takes to leak out
Even a new engine won't hold pressure
But it should last a few seconds

If it won't hold pressure then trace the leak
If the rings are stuffed then air will flow from the breather or the dipstick hole

Exhaust valves leak into the exhaust (no way really)
And so on

 

[robbie]

If I had a well appointed shop I might follow the standard procedure, but in this case I think I already know all I need to know. It was running well, then it sat for 4 years with water in it. I think the rings are probably messed up. When I put the oil in the air intake to increase compression the effect should have lasted longer. The starter was obviously working harder, then it sped up again after only about 8 or 10 revolutions.

I think I need to rebuild this thing. I can get an in-frame engine kit for $650, which seems like a pretty good deal.

 

[fowler]

If the rings really are rusted then the block will also be rusted
At the least if the rings are shot then u have been dragging them up and down the bore while trying to start it

Id pull the head before u order the kit

Just to see what there is to see

 

[robbie]

I have to take it apart before ordering anyway to determine whether it still has standard bearing sizes.

This engine has removable sleeves, and the kit comes with what they call "sleeve assemblies" which includes piston, ring, and sleeve.

The engine is a John Deere 4219, in case you've ever come across one.

 

[fowler]

Yea they are called liners

Most deisels have them

Some are dry fit liners
This means they are just pressed into the bore
Some are wet
Which means they are the bore them self and the water jacket acts directly in them

The dry liners sometimes require pressing gear to remove them
The wet liners only require a screw type puller and come real easy

Maybe see if john deer will lend their liner puller out

 

[robbie]

This will be my first tractor engine to rebuild. It should be interesting.

 

[fowler]

Before u mess with timing too much

Remember to set the engine to TDC to make sure u know all the timing marks

And don't forget u need a special tool to time the VE pump
It's basically a dial gauge on a lever

 

[landuse]

Fowler, it sounds as if you have worked on a tractor or two in your time

 

[fowler]

ha
never rebuilt a tractor engine
too small for me
lol

done quite a few "get her goin" jobs
one in particular
5:30 in the arvo get a call
one of our machines has been stood down for a service performed by the customer (we hire earth moving gear out)
he serviced it and now it wont start for nobody
flew out there with basic tools and a jump cart
sure enough it wont go
has plenty of boot in the battery but just wont fire
spray contact cleaner down the intake and u get 1 cylinder to fire

after about an hour of screwing around we go to the serviceman and ask him to recall what he did step for step

turns out he put too heavy oil in it
and being a one and only heiu system it wont go
heui is hydraulic electric unit injection

in most cases the injector is forced down by a push rod driven by the cam
or its electronically opened (common rail)

but heui was the early attempt at common rail

a small high pressure pump feeds a "common rail" with very high pressure oil
when the injector is required to fire a soliniod controls the high pressure oil onto a piston to push down the injector

if the oil is too thick and being a cold engine the oil is too slow responding and it simply wont fire

so after 2 1/2 hour of stuff around we just had to change the oil and be done