Predator Performance question

[Flyinhillbilly]

I saw a post on here a while back showing a catastrophic failure of the plastic governor gear. The governor had been disabled externally but the gear was left in the motor. The whole motor was ruined, cracked and broken side cover and cam and crank journals broken. Plastic parts suck, especially inside of an engine. If you disable the governor you should remove the plastic gear from inside the case. Racing rules are a different topic I'm not familiar with.

That was whitetrashrocker. He fubar'd that motor.

 

[outcrydrummer]

This might be the difference i suppose. We allow the governor to remain intact and operating. Possibly the arm free from the gear allows it to do something funky.

 

[Kentucky Boy]

Why are they plastic anyway?? Cost savings?

 

[Poboy kartman]

Poboy go to a kart race. Come to one of mine..... i rsce that class and we all run 4800 to 5k rpm. Everyone racing that class runs that setup at that rpm. Thats where the motor makes peak hp stock.

Anyways i shouldnt even have responded.

Fyi no one has to prove you wrong. Already we know chancer had his disabled based on his post. So if the other gentleman didnt you have 1account of this happening and zero real experiece for yourself.


If you conveinantly ignore that an entire class in kart racing uses that setup succesfully i will never convince you otherwise. And im cool with that.

You are incorrect about who disabled what. My post is.

However, you are also incorrect when you state you'll never convince me. I'm just not convinced yet!

We've been through this scenario many times on this forum. We would be more than thrilled to embrace this if it indeed proves to be viable and fairly reliable.

I don't have Poboy in my username because I'm rich.

This is new ground to be honest, however, you show no details in your video, no proof of rpms , and no mention of any don't do's.

Is it IMPOSSIBLE to do this wrong with no knowledge or a tach? If so, then it still qualifies as bad information.

---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 PM ----------

People that know me know I will sometimes post things I don't mean or in ways to get a certain response.

I think this awesome info ( if it proves reliable with the average karter.)

I think we may very well have found the key to govenor gear failure, and it could QUITE possibly be range of motion rather than rpm! (Also, maybe that arm flopping around has something to do with it?)

Anyway, thanks for the input Outcrydrummer. I'm sure some folks are going to put it to the test. I only hope you are 100% correct and the percentage of failure is extremely low.

 

[Bbqjoe]

Mr OCD, it's a known fact that the more posts you have in a forum the smarter you are.
Keep posting, you'll know it all someday.

 

[outcrydrummer]

I could have done a better job on the video but basically no you can't do it wrong.
Unfortunately I sold my mychron 4 to fund the new mychron 5 which I don't have yet, or wont for a while until I can come up with the extra cash.
I will make another video with a tach, I'll go pick up an el cheapo this weekend and go from stock to modified with max rpm's with governor.

Between chancer and other people on here I have never heard of it before honestly. It must be the arm or maybe it has happened to a few racers and they didn't care enough to tell anyone or really find out what happened.
But I honestly feel it wasn't reliable there would already have been people stressing that to the track owners who make the class rules. There is another set of rules for a modified predator, governor removed, but that requires billet rod and flywheel to be in the class.

The class I race, box stock, is meant to be an affordable class for new racers and low budget racers. If these flew apart every other race that wouldn't be very affordable at all.

I will be the first to let everyone know if my gear lets go. I've been setting them up like this for a few years and haven't had one fail. I've tossed quite a few that were 1 season old because it wasn't worth freshening them up (low compression compared to new). Maybe those would eventually fail.

The only reason I even mention this method to new guys is this:
They stand far less a chance by not going in their motors several times messing with internals. It's easy for a new small engine owner to accidentally let the cam drop, misalign the cam dots if that did happen, leave a washer in, leave a socket it, etc.

I suggest they adjust their governor externally until they get the rod, then go into that engine once and remove the governor and install their rod. They haven't wasted oil.....they haven't risked destroying internals over a washer twice now.

I don't think anyone would be happy with 5k rpm for long anyways. If you keep the engine your going to ultimately remove the governor and put those billet parts in and shoot for more rpm.

Just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary.

Josh

 

[Poboy kartman]

Mr OCD, it's a known fact that the more posts you have in a forum the smarter you are.
Keep posting, you'll know it all someday.

So will you!

Edit: Oh...I forgot...you already do!

It's pretty hard to have that many posts without reading a few.

 

[Kartorbust]

I could have done a better job on the video but basically no you can't do it wrong.
Unfortunately I sold my mychron 4 to fund the new mychron 5 which I don't have yet, or wont for a while until I can come up with the extra cash.
I will make another video with a tach, I'll go pick up an el cheapo this weekend and go from stock to modified with max rpm's with governor.

Between chancer and other people on here I have never heard of it before honestly. It must be the arm or maybe it has happened to a few racers and they didn't care enough to tell anyone or really find out what happened.
But I honestly feel it wasn't reliable there would already have been people stressing that to the track owners who make the class rules. There is another set of rules for a modified predator, governor removed, but that requires billet rod and flywheel to be in the class.

The class I race, box stock, is meant to be an affordable class for new racers and low budget racers. If these flew apart every other race that wouldn't be very affordable at all.

I will be the first to let everyone know if my gear lets go. I've been setting them up like this for a few years and haven't had one fail. I've tossed quite a few that were 1 season old because it wasn't worth freshening them up (low compression compared to new). Maybe those would eventually fail.

The only reason I even mention this method to new guys is this:
They stand far less a chance by not going in their motors several times messing with internals. It's easy for a new small engine owner to accidentally let the cam drop, misalign the cam dots if that did happen, leave a washer in, leave a socket it, etc.

I suggest they adjust their governor externally until they get the rod, then go into that engine once and remove the governor and install their rod. They haven't wasted oil.....they haven't risked destroying internals over a washer twice now.

I don't think anyone would be happy with 5k rpm for long anyways. If you keep the engine your going to ultimately remove the governor and put those billet parts in and shoot for more rpm.

Just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary.

Josh

If I recall, it's usually the weights in the govenor that end up causing engine failure. But I'm with Poboy on this, this is something that goes against what we've been told. I guess I have to see it first hand to believe its success rate rather than read it on a forum. Oh and just because there's only a handful of cases mentioned on a forum, doesn't mean it doesn't happen more often. Those are only reported cases. While it could be small, we don't know for sure. So I'm skeptical.

I guess when that small engine dyno is built to see if a stock flywheel will blow apart, he can try this too.

 

[Poboy kartman]

If I recall, it's usually the weights in the govenor that end up causing engine failure. But I'm with Poboy on this, this is something that goes against what we've been told. I guess I have to see it first hand to believe its success rate rather than read it on a forum. Oh and just because there's only a handful of cases mentioned on a forum, doesn't mean it doesn't happen more often. Those are only reported cases. While it could be small, we don't know for sure. So I'm skeptical.

I guess when that small engine dyno is built to see if a stock flywheel will blow apart, he can try this too.

I've never known a racer that wasn't totally forthright and inclined to complete disclosure! They never lie or hide anything.

Edit: ( This wasn't directed at OCD....) hmmm, where have I heard that before...LOL..but that as he stated, it could be more common than he's aware of. Also, I wouldn't put it past some guys to alter that govenor...( not likely, but not impossible)....those claimer engines probably aren't challenged all that often.

 

[outcrydrummer]

If I recall, it's usually the weights in the govenor that end up causing engine failure. But I'm with Poboy on this, this is something that goes against what we've been told. I guess I have to see it first hand to believe its success rate rather than read it on a forum. Oh and just because there's only a handful of cases mentioned on a forum, doesn't mean it doesn't happen more often. Those are only reported cases. While it could be small, we don't know for sure. So I'm skeptical.

I guess when that small engine dyno is built to see if a stock flywheel will blow apart, he can try this too.

Don't blame you on being skeptical. Where would we be if we didn't question things.
In fairness I wasn't referring to this forum alone. I've never seen tale of it on any forum except for this one.
By in large the most people running this configuration are kart racers and I've yet to see it posted about on bobs4cycle forums which is probably the largest racing kart forum period.
But again back to the statistics I agree that a few people have reported the failures, surely there are more that don't bother to post about it.
But the same can be said for stock engine failures of the governor, rod, crank, piston, block etc.

Let me get something setup at the house ( stand for a tank and a tach ) and I will make a video of stock setup max rpm, then max rpm with governor adjusted.
Boy wouldn't it be my luck to have mine fly apart during the video HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!. I would have to leave the forum then lol.

If nothing else it will be a better video with the tach and I will cut out all the unnecessary talking etc. Just straight up rpm pulls under different setups with the governor in place.

At the end of the day if this gets out to people who would otherwise completely disable the arm with the governor inside and now just adjust it before removing it I would be happy.
I'll continue to ask around the tracks and other friends running this class and see if they have heard anything.

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

I've never known a racer that wasn't totally forthright and inclined to complete disclosure! They never lie or hide anything.

We are a secretive bunch. That doesn't mean we wouldn't disclose that a motor blew up because of the governor. We probably would scream it to the hills to try and get the track to change the rules to no governor and let us run a pipe and a free flowing air intake.

We do what we can to obtain a competitive advantage. I don't see how hiding a governor failure achieves that.

I don't know about your experiences with racers but I've met some of the best people I know racing. Most have been very honest and very forthright. "give the shirt of their back" kind of people.
Again this just might be my experience and not yours......
your mileage may vary.

 

[Poboy kartman]

Don't blame you on being skeptical. Where would we be if we didn't question things.
In fairness I wasn't referring to this forum alone. I've never seen tale of it on any forum except for this one.
By in large the most people running this configuration are kart racers and I've yet to see it posted about on bobs4cycle forums which is probably the largest racing kart forum period.
But again back to the statistics I agree that a few people have reported the failures, surely there are more that don't bother to post about it.
But the same can be said for stock engine failures of the governor, rod, crank, piston, block etc.

Let me get something setup at the house ( stand for a tank and a tach ) and I will make a video of stock setup max rpm, then max rpm with governor adjusted.
Boy wouldn't it be my luck to have mine fly apart during the video HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!. I would have to leave the forum then lol.

If nothing else it will be a better video with the tach and I will cut out all the unnecessary talking etc. Just straight up rpm pulls under different setups with the governor in place.

At the end of the day if this gets out to people who would otherwise completely disable the arm with the governor inside and now just adjust it before removing it I would be happy.
I'll continue to ask around the tracks and other friends running this class and see if they have heard anything.

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------



We are a secretive bunch. That doesn't mean we wouldn't disclose that a motor blew up because of the governor. We probably would scream it to the hills to try and get the track to change the rules to no governor and let us run a pipe and a free flowing air intake.

We do what we can to obtain a competitive advantage. I don't see how hiding a governor failure achieves that.

I don't know about your experiences with racers but I've met some of the best people I know racing. Most have been very honest and very forthright. "give the shirt of their back" kind of people.
Again this just might be my experience and not yours......
your mileage may vary.

Well since almost all my family are drag racers, I will concur that most a fine bunch of folks. I'm one of the few that doesn't race. I rest your case.

 

[outcrydrummer]

Poboy the claim rule is used very often actually. Some tracks do a lottery and swap motors around even if there is no claim.
Often if someone gets outrun on the track they assume its the motor and want to claim the front runners engine.
They usually find out that wasn't the case when they finish further back then what they qualified and the front runners are still up front.

Honestly most of us don't mess around outside of the rules. It's just not worth it to put in the time all to lose your motor on a claim.
I know a guy who use to rehone, match rings, etc. Anything he could do to pick up .2 hp over the other guys. He did that until his engine got claimed after qualifying every race.....even if he purposefully qualified middle of the pack lol.
Doesn't take long for people to figure out your doing something different. The sound of the predator changes with mods so we pick up on it rather quickly.
I've even noticed someone making a little more power and hearing the air intake. They had modded the stock airbox. About half the field knew he cheated before we got done qualifying.

---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------

Well since almost all my family are drag racers, I will concur that most a fine bunch of folks. I'm one of the few that doesn't race. I rest your case.

Don't take that as I was offended, I wasn't. Drag racing can be a very expensive sport. Kart racing is super expensive but those drag cars are on another money level.

 

[chancer]

I must point out that it was BBQJOE that mentioned to me "that maybe completely disconnecting is the problem, the arm and it range of motion.
As stated

This might be the difference i suppose. We allow the governor to remain intact and operating. Possibly the arm free from the gear allows it to do something funky.

this is something that goes against what we've been told.

We've been through this scenario many times on this forum. We would be more than thrilled to embrace this if it indeed proves to be viable and fairly reliable.
This is new ground to be honest,
I think this awesome info
I think we may very well have found the key to govenor gear failure,

Those are Honest statements^

I also think this is why:

The class I race, box stock, is meant to be an affordable class for new racers and low budget racers. If these flew apart every other race that wouldn't be very affordable at all.

See This is DIY, Forum membership has mostly been backyard guys learning and tinkering... OR Guys running full blown race karts.
So guys in the "stocker class" are aspiring to race in "super modified" and not interested in yard Karts anymore. So we were overlooked.
This may be the overlooked key to solve a simple yard kart RPM issue.

 

[outcrydrummer]

This post is getting a little long winded.

Guy's I'm going to start a new post over at OMB Forums titled " How to modify the governor on your stock predator 212 with stock internals and stock flywheel cause OMB charges too much for billet parts".

Please come on over and chime in

 

[chancer]

Oh so you are looking to get banned from OMB!!! LOL

 

[outcrydrummer]

I'm starting to think I should conduct a test.........
I'll buy a cheap tach this weekend.
Find a decent camera ( I use my phone so recording time is limited )
Buy a brand new hemi predator
Break it in
Change the oil
Then modify the governor to 5000rpm
Run the engine at 4800 rpm (Peak hp) In hour long intervals allowing cool down and refilling of gas
Change the oil at 8 hours with run of the mill synthetic 10w30
And see how long that puppy lasts. If it fails......I'll take it apart real time and record and see what happened.

Anyone else interested in seeing this?
Would this help to maybe show some durability or validity of the mod if it survives?
How many hours would be acceptable?

 

[chancer]

I would not waste an engine or the money to prove a point.
I would stay online and argue a point though! LOL
"Hold on Honey... Someone is wrong on the internet"
Besides running the engine at no load, and consistent RPM is different than running a kart around the yard or a minibike through the trails.

 

[Flyinhillbilly]

Very much. Please include a how to on the governor mid on it too. I think it will be a hit.
I know you're right about this OCD. I've spent many hours combing through old posts on racing forums, and have never seen it mentioned, I just never thought about it as my mind was in ungoverned hot rod stuff.

 

[outcrydrummer]

I would not waste an engine or the money to prove a point.
I would stay online and argue a point though! LOL
"Hold on Honey... Someone is wrong on the internet"
Besides running the engine at no load, and consistent RPM is different than running a kart around the yard or a minibike through the trails.

I'll go to great lengths to prove a point lol.
Besides I don't think load or rpm variance is an issue just needs to be quantified.
If the gear fails it would be solely because of the rpm of the engine correlated to the rpm at which its turning.

So I think we need to come up with a fair way to gauge what's a reasonable amount of time.

I can do an intro on stock vs modified rpm to rpm.
Then setup a clock in the picture and let her eat on the bench or the kart with a tach also pictured verifying the rpm.

I would have to put on the stock muffler as the header will be way to loud to just let it sit there and blast 4800 rpm for hours on end.
It's suppose to snow this weekend so what better time to test something like this.

Anyone else care to see this? I'm sure a torture test on youtube would get me some views.

---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

Besides Chancer I'm confident to the point I won't be wasting an engine on the test. I'm not going to run it until it fails but to a certain reasonable amount of time to say hey......it's not likely to fail.
What that hour time would be I need Poboy and some others to chime in on.
100 hours is kind of ridiculous to test. That's 100 refills of the tank I've got to do and a crap ton of oil changes lol.
I would agree to what people seem to think reasonable though.

 

[Kartorbust]

I'd say go for it. Yeah OMB is one forum that'll ban you if you refuse to drop in a billet rod and flywheel if the gov is removed or modified...All because of one instance where a flywheel supposedly blew apart at high rpm. So it's just remove the gov arm to adjust it?