Precision Bearings

[Hydroracer]

Hi, I’m new here to this site, following karting from time to time. I’m involved with stock/mod outboard racing. Specifically want a recommended precision bearing manufacturer. Looking for high (ABEC 7 or higher rated bearing) rated ABEC ball bearings and good quality. Another question? Are the ceramics better than regular bearings? Just want to keep the conversation simple, no need to get highly detailed about it. Looking for Master Hack’s input here.

 

[Hellion]

Oh Master Hack's reputation reaches far beyond DIYGK..... amazing. In the spirit of not getting too highly detailed about it, maybe you are overthinking it in the first place?

I too shall await the input of his eminence.

 

[Hydroracer]

No not overthinking it. Back in the early 2000’s before ceramics SKF 6202 ABEC 7’s were 500 CDN a pop. I found something comparable but I’m positive they were Chinese in origin but they were still 100 each. Last ones I purchased were from a company out of Arizona claiming they manufacture ceramics but honestly I believe they purchase the components and assemble the bearings. I think the company was Performance Bearing and the founder has sold the business and it’s in Utah now. Name of the game here is reducing parasitic and frictional drag to free up HP through the turns. I use them in conjunction with something else. The analogy here is like Cory Lajoies stacking pennies, little things add up to a big thing. I build all my own stuff, boats, engines, props. Play in other areas also, sleds, cars, etc. You have to out think people to get to and stay at the top.

 

[AnthonyG]

No not overthinking it. Back in the early 2000’s before ceramics SKF 6202 ABEC 7’s were 500 CDN a pop. I found something comparable but I’m positive they were Chinese in origin but they were still 100 each. Last ones I purchased were from a company out of Arizona claiming they manufacture ceramics but honestly I believe they purchase the components and assemble the bearings. I think the company was Performance Bearing and the founder has sold the business and it’s in Utah now. Name of the game here is reducing parasitic and frictional drag to free up HP through the turns. I use them in conjunction with something else. The analogy here is like Cory Lajoies stacking pennies, little things add up to a big thing. I build all my own stuff, boats, engines, props. Play in other areas also, sleds, cars, etc. You have to out think people to get to and stay at the top.

I ran quarter midgets with my kids. Ceramic are the way to go. A little more maintenance but definitely help on the track

 

[Master Hack]

Stand by the Great and powerful.....awww nevermind.
I'll give ya bearing 101 in a while.
Hint. don't waste yer $$ on ABEC 7-9 bearings, unless you're building a vehicle that might leave the surface of the planet.

 

[Master Hack]

I’m involved with stock/mod outboard racing

Ya ever deal with Todd Anderson Racing? I build some ceramic bearings for his outboards. He does some cool stuff.
SO Bearing 101:
Read this shyt: https://www.emersonbearing.com/resources/abec-rating-guide/
The ABEC rating has more to do with the boundry dimensions than other stuff.
The tolerances on an ABEC 7 bearing are tighter than an ABEC 1. It might be an advantage for an application such as a machining center. there ya want to have a spindle hold a few tenths. It can be a disadvantage in a racing engine. There ya want a "looser" bearing that can spool up faster with minimum resistance. Thats where ceramics hold a big advantage. A ceramic balls usually have a grade 5 rating. some grade 3. that means the ball is smooth and geometrically perfect down to 3 o 5 MILLIONth of an inch. The common production bearing has grade 25 balls.
$500! anyone that paid that for 1 202 got seriously ripped. should be around $75.
There are lots of garage bearing shops now. Chinese ceramics are about as good as you would expect. And there is good ceramics and bad.White = bad, black = good, Usually.
Pick your source carefully.
A good custom bearing maker will listen to how ya are using them and make them to suit.
A good ABEC 3 ceramic will out perform an ABEC 7 in an engine any day.
I still have some inventory that I use for my own projects, but I can share.
Send me a message. If I don't have it I can tell ya where to get it without getting bent over.

 

[Hydroracer]

Yes I know who Todd is, done some business in the past. If I’m not mistaken don’t you get more revolutions out of a bearing with a tighter tolerance than one with a looser tolerance using the same amount of energy on both? How does oil viscosity affect bearings? Do they make ceramic needle bearings?

 

[Master Hack]

I have found that a looser radial play performs better at high RPM. C-3 clearance is the standard for "production" bearings. Works well in most applications. C-4 clearance (looser) performs better at high RPM (from my experience). Bear in mind the difference between C-3 and C-4 is about .0005, inch For a 202 bearing. that increases with the size of the bearing. Oil/grease viscosity works as you would expect.
Drag racers often run ceramic wheel bearings dry, cuz they only see action for a few seconds. Lubricity improvers are helpful also. Graphite, and my favorite Tungsten disulfide (WS2) can be mixed with grease or oil for use in sealed bearings.
There are a few other tricks that reside between my ears and I like to keep them there for my use.
There are no ceramic needles or rollers available as far as I know, but I have been (kinda) retired for about 5 years, and I am out of touch with the latest. There is a ton of info that you can read that get into more detail, but we are trying to keep it simple.

edit:
there is a point of diminishing return, when going with a bigger internal clearance.
If ya go much past C4, ball skiding starts to happen.
I'll look for a diagram that explains ball loading, its not quite what ya probably think.

 

[Master Hack]

Specifically want a recommended precision bearing manufacturer

What sizes and types are ya looking for? If ya just want decent radial bearing and be able to go somewhere to get bearings that are above the quality of flee bay or the jungle store. Every big city has a bearing supply house.
motion industries.
Baker bearing,
National presision
mcguire
alpine bearing
there are probable smaller local suppliers, just look in the "yellow pages"
do those even exist?

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

My local Car Quest can get bearings. Might be an option for you.

 

[Master Hack]

My local Car Quest can get bearings

Not to diss car quest, but ya won't get a good bearing at a auto parts store. You'll get what some buyer got a deal on. Ya might get a brand name, ya might get a surplus bearing, a chinese bearing or ya might get a good bearing. ln most applications that bearing is good enough.
what hydroracer is looking for is something that pushes friction reduction to the limit.
Cuz thats whats its all about. Racers are always looking for that micro spec of power the other guy didn't think of.

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

National bearings aren't good?

And if your not cheating in racing your not trying hard enough.

 

[Master Hack]

National bearings aren't good

Well, those are the finest India has to offer. No, seriously those are fine. The point I Was trying to make (poorly) is next time ya may get something from china. Retail places like tend to sell whatever they get a deal on. I could be wrong, I've been out of touch for a long while.
If, like the OP here, you are looking for a bearing other than a standard C-3 radial bearing, the counter guy at a bearing supplier is going to know more (about round things) that the counter clown at a hardware store, auto parts or starbucks.

 

[Hydroracer]

Do retainer and shield materials influence performance and longevity much? Retainer vs no retainer? We have bearing suppliers in our area. Last ceramics I purchased came from Performance Bearing out of Utah. I need 6202 3pcs and one 5202. The rest are need bearings which I haven’t seen ceramic replacements for. Usually running in the 8000-10000 rpm range.

 

[Master Hack]

Material of seals/shields and retainers does affect performance, but type can have more affect. Seals can be had in non-contact, light contact and regular contact. Metal shields are non contact. The 202 bearings you need are inside the engine, correct? If so you want no seals.
Retainers, there are a million choices. Best choice for all around use is a nylon "crown" retainer. It imparts minimum drag and is good to 4XXF. No retainer is known as a full compliment. Sounds great but actually is not good for high speed. The balls bump together and where they do there is counter rotating friction. 10K RPM is no dig deal for a 202 radial bearing with a crown retainer and light contact seals.
You mentioned 6202 and 5202 are you interested in ceramics? The 5202 is a double row, I can make those, skip ball. Half the balls are missing. better speed, less friction, but half the strength. They do work however.

 

[Hydroracer]

The 6202’s are for the gearfoot. The 5202 is for the crank on the bottom. Not sure it’s a good idea to run skip ball on the crank because if I throw the crank I‘d probably lose the pistons, rods, case, etc. It would be costly. Crank spins the driveshaft directly with no support on the shaft. Would the skip ball still have a retainer?

 

[Master Hack]

Would the skip ball still have a retainer?

Absolutely. Without it would get outta balance and self destruct.
l don’t recommend it, but l have done several, in different applications Also.

 

[Hydroracer]

Correction the 52xx series bearIng is a 5205. What applications have you done skip bearings on? Give me a sense of what could be done.

 

[Master Hack]

Well Todd buys them (5205). He says outboard crank as you did. I have to think it is the same.
I have not heard any horror stories and he has been using them for 2-3 years now.
I never hear how well something works, but l hear A LOT when it doesn't.
Maybe call him?
He's the most extreme case for those.
Your results my vary. As stated earlier, l don't recommend that, but l make em however the customer says. If you think peanut butter makes a good lube and request that, then i'll ask smooth or chunky?

 

[Hydroracer]

Todd is doing skipball on those 5205’s? I asked a friend of mine who’s an engineer about it and he was wondering what the axial and radial loads of the crank were on the bearing. Considering they use these engines for paramutual racing in Japan an engine failure would mean they would have to refund all the bettors their money. He said the engineers of the engine got it right but you don’t know what you don’t know right. Do you know if Todd is using skip balls on those 202’s also, a little extreme. Todd is racing Pro Outboard if I’m not mistaken, cranking about 14000 rpm, lot more HP than what I’m running.