New guy; first build

[amateurhour]

Hi guys,

I don't know how it happened but a few weeks ago I decided I was going to build a kart. I've never welded or worked too much on engines but I've been looking for a project and what guy hasn't wanted a gokart at some point in their life?

Anyway, I'm a total beginner but I'm going to try and put as much detail into this thread as I can. Maybe it can save another beginner from some of the mistakes/headaches I will most likely run into. I'm also going to keep track of the price as I'm going to try and keep this build frugal, and by the end see how cheap one can build a basic kart without skimping too much on quality parts. I am a strong believer in the cost saving power of Craigslist/Kijiji.

Note: I'm in Ontario, Canada, so these prices are Canadian dollars.

To start, I picked up a cheap arc welder with auto darkening helmet for $150 in all. I'm not sure how this welder's going to work out; it's a 70A Crappy Tire (Canadian Tire, for those south of the border) starter model. It's never been used, but some guy on Kijiji bought it to fix something and decided to hire someone else to do the job instead.

http://imageshack.us/a/img823/2484/df94.jpg

I also got a 5HP Briggs & Stratton motor for the very reasonable price of $100, also brand new off Kijiji. I don't know the model of the motor; I'll have to check the owner's manual again, which listed a few models it applies to. I'm sure someone on this forum will be able to chime in with some info.

http://imageshack.us/a/img268/5513/1s5.jpeg

Yesterday, I discovered the wonderful Metal Supermarkets and picked up 24 feet of 1" x 1" x 1/8" steel square tube for the very reasonable price of $40. I realized after the fact that I got hot-rolled rather than cold-rolled steel. I don't know if that will end up being an issue or not.

I also picked up some extra welding rods, leather gloves, and a couple of those angled magnet brace things, the proper name of which escapes me. Total cost: ~$30 at Princess Auto. I later found out that I could get 4 times as many welding rods for 2 times the price at Home Depot... live and learn.


As for practical concerns, I have a few questions for you guys. I'm entirely new to this, so I'm sure there'll be a lot of trial and error.

First of all, I couldn't find any 6010 welding rods, so I grabbed the 6011. Are these appropriate for 1/8" (0.125 I believe) steel?

My welder is 70A with just a simple high/low switch. Will this simply make my job more difficult, or will it not even work at all? I wanted to get a cheap MIG/flux-core wire-feed setup but I figured I'd start with something cheaper, and go from there.

My other concern is with the weight of the tubing. I have only 5 horses to work with so I want to make the frame as light as I can (within my budget and abilities of course). I weigh 150 lb, but I know my buddies are going to want to ride it and some of them are pretty big guys. I've been thinking of different ideas for the frame that might save some weight while maintaining integrity. I had an idea involving triangles instead of the usual latter frame but I have a feeling it wouldn't really work in the real world as well as in my head. Should I get some thinner round tubing to use alongside the 1x1/8? Also, do you think I'll have any issues with the hot-rolled steel?


Anyway, when I get into something, I dive in with both feet. So I should update this fairly regularly. I've never welded before, so I picked up a few offcuts from Metal Supermarkets and I'm going to do some practice welds tomorrow hopefully. As soon as I'm comfortable and confident with my welds, I'm going to start work on the frame. That should give me a bit of time to work out some of the design issues.

If you guys have any tips or anything I'm missing, please do chime in. Looks like there are some real smart people here, and so far, it's one of the friendlier forums I've seen.

 

[mckutzy]

Hello and welcome.
This is a common thing here on the forum lately, Cheap builds on the cheap. Now dont take this the wrong way, but in the long run.. you get what you pay for.

You are going to need to do alot of research on how things are built, how to build them and why, aswell as learn the tools you are going to use for this. All this is a big safety thing, for you and others you may encounter.
Make a plan of what you are going to build and look for what that needs to be done.


Princess auto will be an asset in this project. Also they are about the easiest way to get most of the drive line components here in Canada.

Cold finished steel is a bit easier to work with as it has no mill scale to hamper your welding. The price there is about right, but that business is setup for the average worker and smaller shops to buy a bit of steel.

Home depot is bad most things here except for metric fasteners and some tools.

I think that since this is your first welding experience, most of what you bought will be scrap. Now this isnt me just being a jerk, im just saying it is kinda critical to make something with solid welds. Practice Practice Practice.... I would say your going to shortly see that the wire feed would have been a better buy.

Your welder will have for the most part poor performance. It doesnt have much power to do much. It will have a horrible duty cycle so shutdowns and long cooling periods will become common. Fluxcored wire feeds are about the same but little better at welding, and have a little more power typically.

If do use this welder, I strongly recommend that use welder next to the power outlet with a circuit with little else on it, also if an extension cord is used, use a heavy gauge, you are going to need all 15 amps it has.

 

[OzFab]

IMO, your steel is twice as thick as it needs to be, you could've got away with 1/16" wall thickness.

I tend to agree with mckutzy re: welder, it'll probably do the job...eventually (although, I'm used to 240v welders)

 

[loud1]

I agree with mckutzy about the welder and most of your metal becoming scrap, i went to school for welding and my first project took a little less than twice the metal the project called for.
A part of that was inexperience but most of it was from mistakes caused by me getting in a hurry, slow and steady, take your time.
Oh, 6011 rods are fine.

 

[lukasdlf]

I think that you're not going to be able to weld 1/8" electrodes with a 70 amp welder. The majority of 1/8" electrodes needs at least 80A. Buy some 3/32" (2.4mm) rods, its range aperaje is more or less between 50A and 100A. If you are going to learn to weld, try the 6013 ones for practice, they are very "friendly" but with low penetration, the 6011 have much more penetration and often distort the metal easily if you're not careful. In my current project I'm using 3/32" 7018 rods as they are more resistant and for welding appearance is much better, BUT! are more difficult to use, normally needs a DC weler, needs higher Amp and if there is high humidity, you have to dry them.

If someone with more experience, find a mistake in what I said correct me but I'm 99% sure that everything is fine.

 

[amateurhour]

@mckutzy: Don't worry about sounding like a jerk; I asked for advice and I know your simply trying to give some.

I know the cheap builds you mean, like the wooden door-hinge axle kart. I'm frugal but I know you get what you pay for.

As for the scrap thing, I bought some offcut tube in addition to the 24' length I intend to use for the frame. I'm also not afraid to go buy more if needed now that I know how little it costs. Going into this, I thought steel tube, and raw metal in general were out of reach for the average weekend warrior.

In terms of crappy welder, it has a advertised 20% duty cycle on the low setting, 10% on high. I made sure to do some research before buying a welder so I know about duty cycles, but that also means I know I didn't make a perfect choice. If it's a matter of making my job take longer and take a bit more work, that's fine, as long as in the end, the welder is even capable of the job at all.

@Fabroman: I thought so but as I did more research I heard conflicting reports so I figured I'd go the safe route. Do you think I should get some 1/16" to use for bracing or could I get away with 1/16" throughout, without too much flex? I know arc welders have a tendency to poke holes in thinner metals, but I'm not sure quite how thin.

@lukasdlf: Well, it seems I need to do a bit more research lol. If Princess Auto is open Sundays, I'll grab a pack of 6013 in the morning and try that out as well.


I'm not afraid to buy a new welder. I was going to buy a welder before I decided to build a kart, because I'm always building or fixing something, and the power to manipulate metal just seems invaluable to a tinkerer like myself.

If I can get away with this one with some effort though, I'll use it until I save for a nice MIG. I didn't want to rush into the MIG and get one I'd outgrow in a year. I figured I'd spend about $150 on the helmet anyway, so I got the cheap arc welder that came with one.


NOTE: I tend to ramble; I'll try my best to keep that at a minimum.

 

[OzFab]

@Fabroman: I thought so but as I did more research I heard conflicting reports so I figured I'd go the safe route. Do you think I should get some 1/16" to use for bracing or could I get away with 1/16" throughout, without too much flex? I know arc welders have a tendency to poke holes in thinner metals, but I'm not sure quite how thin.

There is some truth in that but, a MIG will do the same if your settings aren't right. My buddy has a 130A 240V arc & he wound it down to weld 1/16" SHS...

The problem with choosing steel is you have to find the balance between weight & strength; too thick & it'll be a heavy pig of a thing, too thin & it'll fold up like an accordian...

Having said that, I've built 2 karts using 1/16" material (one square, one round) & both seem to be ok, weight wise & strength wise.

NOTE: I tend to ramble; I'll try my best to keep that at a minimum.

That's ok, you're not the only one. Some would say it's a good thing; the more you ramble, the more info you provide

 

[mckutzy]

AAHHH yes the door hing fiasco.....
Ok now were getting somewhere....

I see you have done some research on our fellow brethren here upon this forum. Good to see.

With the cheaper helmets, watch out if the lens is starting to crapping out on you. My friend bought one cheap at The princess and it didnt work properly to begin with. He started to complain when welding he can see well, turns out the lens didnt click into shade mode. I also confirmed this, almost made both of us blind.

220v later is going to be alot easier to weld with. Lots of power and plenty of amps. If you have to flick the breaker on that you got to slow down, but that might not even happen before the thermal in the machine trips.

You could use 1/8 flat stock to make gussets, you just have to make sure you bevel all of the joints and grind to bare metal all joint material(if any is hot rolled).

A big tip with the stick welder (and with any flux cored, Which is essentially a wirefeed stick) is that you have to keep things clean before and after you strike an arc. Strike to tac a piece, chip and brush off scale/flux dust down to clean metal. I cant stress this as much, and we see it all the time. This will be a tedious task and as a new person to welding it is a pain in the butt(even to me a more seasoned welder) .....But this is the nature of the beast. So remain patient and Clean clean clean.

In the end it is your Butt on the line.

 

[mymumisaman]

Stick wedding is messy the best advice given to me was to get some scrap metal and practice on that for a while, and take it slow, no really , the slower the better, you will see what we mean when u have a go, if it fails to spark tap the end of the stick on some concrete then scrape it across a peice of scrap metal hooked up to the peice ur trying to weld (it will spark), this should get the end sorted for the weld, also if it sticks disconnect the welder from the rod (when its off) and use plyers to bend the stick at the point of contact, never use your hand, learnt that one the hard way! I'm just an amateur welder so if anyone has any tips I'm all ears.

 

[mckutzy]

Ya there is the stab and pull out method, I am a fan of just strike like a match, mind you thats how I was taught. Its been a while since I have stick welded, I have been babied by the wire feed.

 

[amateurhour]

Unfortunately the only 220v outlets in my house are indoors, in my kitchen and basement. My garage only has 110v. When I have my own place, my garage will have 220v circuits hanging from the ceiling (Joy!).

I'm going to try and put aside a chunk of my next few pay cheques to get a MIG welder, and practice with this one in the meantime. The way I am, I'm going to use it for other things anyway, so it's worth having one that's not going to give me a headache every time I use it.

 

[mckutzy]

You could make an extension cor for 220/230v. rout it where you want.

I made a cord that split 230v/30amp in to 2- 115v 15amp circuits.

Now if your savvy in the electrical field These might be a good bet for you. If NOT, Id say do not try this at all.

 

[amateurhour]

Just tried out the welder on some scrap 2" x 1" x 1/8" tube.



That was the first try. I couldn't get the 6011 to arc, so I tried the rods that came with the welder. I don't know exactly what they are but they're 1/16" diameter rods. They seemed to do okay. It's not good by any means but I definitely expected my first one to come out looking more... beady and unkempt. After a few tries I was getting used to holding the rod and maintaining an arc. It held under its own weight fine but after some hammering it snapped off, as expected.

I'm going to get some different rods to try, as well as some thinner steel both for practice and probably for the benefit of a light kart once I do start building it. I also want to work on getting used to doing multiple passes and getting them in the right place.

Thanks for the tips guys; I'm sure with a bit of practice, I'll get the hang of it and come out with some serviceable welds.

By the way, welding is AWESOME! Nothing more satisfying than wielding the power of a high voltage arc and not blowing anything up. (I have experience working with electronics, and usually a sustained arc is a bad thing lol)

 

[amateurhour]

You could make an extension cor for 220/230v. rout it where you want.

I made a cord that split 230v/30amp in to 2- 115v 15amp circuits.

Now if your savvy in the electrical field These might be a good bet for you. If NOT, Id say do not try this at all.

Yeah, when I started looking at welders I figured big deal, I can just add a 220 circuit. My dad knows how to do that stuff and I have pretty good general electrical knowledge, then my dad informed me that heavy gauge wire doesn't come cheap.

How long was the cable you made, and how much did it cost. If I can do it for not too much, or just factor it into the price of my welder, I'd make one; I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron.

 

[OzFab]

Not bad for a first attempt; was that on high or low setting? If that's high, it's not gonna be much good to you welding the tube you have...

 

[Doc Sprocket]

Hey- Welcome to the forum- Seems I'm a bit late getting here tonight: I was out all day getting my redneck on at some lawn tractor races.

Can you narrow down the Ontario thing? It is a BIG honkin' province! I'm a bit north of Toronto. FWIW, I practically live at Princess Auto, and have most of the catalog memorized at this point. When I show up in one of the 3 stores within my radius, they reserve a checkout and send a manager over... LOL

 

[mckutzy]

I will note you didnt bevel the edge welded.

I have had some electrical experiance, used to work on electric motors, BUT... USE INFO AT ONES OWN RISK..... YOU ARE WARNED...... IF IN DOUBT CALL AN EXPERIENCED TECHNICIAN .
Sorry guys Gota have some disclaimer


The cable is 4c/10ga. SOOW wire 60ft long(REALLY EXPENSIVE about $200), (w/nema 14/30plug, bought separately but attached, meant for converting a dryer to newer plug/receptical style)
I had a big electrical box so I mounted 2- 115v,15amp circuit breakers, Eaton cutler hammer type(screw on type), NOT stab-lok verity; with 2-115v wall receptacles.
I also had to use some solid 14ga wire with coresponding colors, to mate to the breakers(you cant use braided wire on breakers)
A couple of yellow plug boxes, tape, merrets, zip ties.

I rigged this up as an extention cord with dual redundancy breakers. This plugs into a plug for a hot tub that is no longer in use. It has 2- 30a breakers for 230v. It payed in/out when ever I go out to my shop out back(Im a renter so no hardlines installed allowed).

It was about $300 all in, and is heavy. I bought the good stuff cause I was also doing alot maintenance for a roofing friend so he fronted the cash for this. I did however paid him back but in the end it was worth it.

Want more info PM me, although I thing I have already posted in the electrical forum somewhere??

 

[DaiSan76]

You might try some 7014 rod. It's about the easiest thing to use, and it makes a nice looking weld. Then slow down and make sure you are really getting good penetration.

 

[amateurhour]

@Fabroman: Thanks. It was on the high setting; the low setting wasn't particularly effective, and I do believe you are correct. I'm probably going to switch to 1/16" for a lighter kart and get a nice 140 A MIG / wire feed.

@toystory: I live in Mississauga, just down the street from Princess Auto.

@mckutzy: No I did not bevel the edges. I want to get some more scrap in different sizes and when I have a full day to mess around, bevel the edges and try different types of joints and thicknesses and multiple passes, etc. As for the extension cord, at that price, it may have to wait. I think I should be able to get away with a 110v 140 amp MIG for most, if not all of my needs for some time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

@DaiSan76: Thanks, I'll try that. Princess Auto has a fairly limited selection (no 6010 for example) so I may have to find a welding supply place in the area. I do definitely have to keep practicing and get a hang of my speed and angle of attack. My welder only came with 5 of the unidentified rods so I didn't have much to work with today.

 

[amateurhour]

Quick update: I'm picking up a used Hobart Handler 140 this week (provided it's in good condition, of course) and some 1/16" steel tube. Once that's done, I'm going to start practicing and designing my frame. Updates soon to come.

Another update: Picked up a brand new Lincoln PRO MIG 140 for $450. Actual progress begins now!