Need some advice on a V6 engine

[Brandon1023]

Ok, obviously a 2498 cc engine is not for a Kart but I'm having a little mechanical trouble myself here. I've moved up to working on my car's engine, and in order to fix a timing problem, I had to pull the whole engine out of the car. Now that I'm putting it back together, the last thin stopping me is a shaft, stuck in the bolt hole for the coolant line bracket. Upon test fitting the bolts for the hose mount, I went ahead and tightened it until it snapped the head right off its little shaft. Hindsight is 20/20 and I can't do anything about it now, except try to get it out.

To make matters worse, I tried using a stupid screw extractor which went ahead and imitated the bolt itself, and decided to snap, leaving the hallow filled with marked steel. I have tried almost every trick under the sun from cobalt drill bits to bits in the dremel. Not too sure what to do at this point, and I don't usually post on the internet for advice, so yea.. any pointers and appreciated at this point. Thanks. :rapture:

edit- Would it be possible to permanently mount the bracket on to the engine? I don't want to suggest this, but what about Rapid Fix (cyanocrylate ester) ? A guy at the parts distributor down the street told me they fix engine blocks with it. If anything, I could tighten the top bolt, and adhere all around the bottom. Then maybe, seal it with rtv like caulking? Just food for thought..

Anyway, thanks in adv.

 

[fowler]

Oh bugger u broke an easy out

Nothing can drill then out

U must either oxy cut it out or try to drill around it

public notice
Easy outs, left hand drill bits and so on only extract a bolt if it is loose
If the bolt is burred, bottomed out, seized or stretched then the only way out is to drill and tap

80% of the time u won't get it out with an easy out
But dam they are good for that other 20%

Can u rotate the manifold 180*

So u can drill and tap new holes in the untouched corners

I wouldn't go glueing it on
That's well beyond redneck nothing

 

[oldbikerarlo]

Try cutting a slot in the broken bolt, with a cutoff disk, then heat the metal around the bolt, then use a screwdriver that you can use with a wrench. I have used this method as last ditch effert a few times.

 

[machinist@large]

Ok, obviously a 2498 cc engine is not for a Kart but I'm having a little mechanical trouble myself here. I've moved up to working on my car's engine, and in order to fix a timing problem, I had to pull the whole engine out of the car. Now that I'm putting it back together, the last thin stopping me is a shaft, stuck in the bolt hole for the coolant line bracket. Upon test fitting the bolts for the hose mount, I went ahead and tightened it until it snapped the head right off its little shaft. Hindsight is 20/20 and I can't do anything about it now, except try to get it out.

To make matters worse, I tried using a stupid screw extractor which went ahead and imitated the bolt itself, and decided to snap, leaving the hallow filled with marked steel. I have tried almost every trick under the sun from cobalt drill bits to bits in the dremel. Not too sure what to do at this point, and I don't usually post on the internet for advice, so yea.. any pointers and appreciated at this point. Thanks. :rapture:

edit- Would it be possible to permanently mount the bracket on to the engine? I don't want to suggest this, but what about Rapid Fix (cyanocrylate ester) ? A guy at the parts distributor down the street told me they fix engine blocks with it. If anything, I could tighten the top bolt, and adhere all around the bottom. Then maybe, seal it with rtv like caulking? Just food for thought..

Anyway, thanks in adv.

Oh man; thats bad.... OK; I don't know the easy answer for you, but cyanoacrylate adhesives haven't got a snowball's chance in of fixing that. It can possibly be repaired, but you're going to need to have a good machine shop with real machinists who are willing to try and fix this.

As one such machinist myself, I need to warn you in advance: this type of repair is strictly time and material. We do not quote anything, and you are going to pay for everything.

Now, for quote #2.

Oh bugger u broke an easy out

Nothing can drill then out

U must either oxy cut it out or try to drill around it

Not quite so fast, my friend. One of the old that enjoyed making my life a living hell back in the day used to enjoy waving sign's under my nose: one of his favorites was "Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and exuberance."

He didn't have his head on straight: the correct line of thought is that older age and experience can potentially help overcome the problems that the young encounter.

public notice
Easy outs, left hand drill bits and so on only extract a bolt if it is loose
If the bolt is burred, bottomed out, seized or stretched then the only way out is to drill and tap

80% of the time u won't get it out with an easy out
But dam they are good for that other 20%

Can u rotate the manifold 180*

So u can drill and tap new holes in the untouched corners

I wouldn't go glueing it on
That's well beyond redneck nothing

High grade solid carbide tooling will (slowly) chew thru any high speed steel tooling, including drill bits and easy outs. If he had called for local reinforcements before going for broke, he wouldn't have to deal with all the hassle of trying to relocate true center for the original stud.

You have the correct idea of using the original manifold as a drill jig; it's just that if he hadn't managed to turn one hole into two, he wouldn't have to try and engineer a hack & whack fix.

Try cutting a slot in the broken bolt, with a cutoff disk, then heat the metal around the bolt, then use a screwdriver that you can use with a wrench. I have used this method as last ditch effert a few times.

Sorry, this damage is beyond that point of repair.....

 

[fowler]

Well anything is possible with enough time and money

Oxy is only method I've seen
And by the sounds of it the cheapest
But risky and u need a very skilled boilermaker

But as a machinist I'm sure u have many tools most have never heard of

EDIT
Can u drill out the hole and install a thread insert

In my opinion
The only repair u can do is to blows the easy out out
Then drill out the hole
Then install a thread insert
Not a heli coil an insert


Not sure what machinists plan is but it sounds costly
But probably safer

 

[Rustydog2010]

Not sure how well this will work, space constraints and so on. What about making a spacer? Say 10-15mm. Drill two new holes and thread them. Do it above and below where the coolant passages meet in the middle. Use counter sunk bolts. Then make it so the neck can be bolted on?

Would be a bit of work, but maybe an option?

 

[oldbikerarlo]

I have used a dremel with a carbide burr to to grind out easy outs and taps, it will mess up the hole and a thead insert of some kind will have to be used. Useing the manifold as a drill guide is a good idea. A keensert is a good insert to use as they do not require a special tap, like a heilcoil. They do require that you tap the hole with a standard thead.

I am a retired aircraft machinist, and this method is used in aircraft engines, should work for you.

You can use JB weld to fill in, also.

 

[machinist@large]

Well anything is possible with enough time and money

Oxy is only method I've seen
And by the sounds of it the cheapest
But risky and u need a very skilled boilermaker

But as a machinist I'm sure u have many tools most have never heard of

Fowler, you just earned your spurs; A] because you are correct, from the line of work you're a specialist in, and B] I think most of the members of this forum (and pretty much everywhere else) would look at what either of us do for a living and go WTF!!!!!

Fixing something like this on the type of equipment you play with most likely won't be fixed using common hand tools.....

EDIT
Can u drill out the hole and install a thread insert

100% correct; however the devil is in the details....

Not sure what machinists plan is but it sounds costly
But probably safer

Not sure how well this will work, space constraints and so on. What about making a spacer? Say 10-15mm. Drill two new holes and thread them. Do it above and below where the coolant passages meet in the middle. Use counter sunk bolts. Then make it so the neck can be bolted on?

Would be a bit of work, but maybe an option?

I have used a dremel with a carbide burr to to grind out easy outs and taps, it will mess up the hole and a thead insert of some kind will have to be used. Useing the manifold as a drill guide is a good idea. A keensert is a good insert to use as they do not require a special tap, like a heilcoil. They do require that you tap the hole with a standard thead.

I am a retired aircraft machinist, and this method is used in aircraft engines, should work for you.

You can use JB weld to fill in, also.

It looks like we all are in general agreement on how to try and fix this; what complicates things is the double drilled holes, a broken easy out, and the fact that this is a coolant connection, possibly on an aluminum block.

First concern; what is the wall thickness at the site of the problem? This is really the paramount question, because any thread insert could possibly break into/ cause weakening of the block where the original stud mounted. This is a liquid cooled engine, and almost all modern cooling systems are pressurized.

Silicone and RTV are great aid's for getting coolant system gaskets to seal, but they generally are poor sealers, in and of themselves.

Is the engine still out of the car? Trying to fix something like this in the car is really an exercise in futility....

OK; how deep was/is the easy out? How thick is the block where the broken stud is? These are the questions I would try to answer, if I had the block in front of me.

Fowler, Rusty & OBR have much the same idea's I have, but I would potentially combine them.

If, and only if, the block wall is thick enough to keep from having a blow out, I would plan on using the thread insert that OBR mentioned, the most common trade name is Keensert; Helicoil type inserts are good, Keensert's are a whole lot better.

Next; the broken easy out needs to be close enough to the surface that you can take a sander and sand (not grind) the area over the broken stud down enough to eliminate it, or aid in extracting it. You need to stay as far away from the sealing surface of the flange as possible. Once that is done, you would want to make a drill guide/ plate to locate your pilot drill for the replacement of the stud. You can use the manifold to make the plate, but the plate needs to be a stand alone, because it's most likely to be trash when this is over. Plate needs to be at least 1/2 in thick (~13 mm) to have a chance of keeping the pilot drill in line over the target.

If this gets you to where you think you can try another easy out, that's up to you. Otherwise, plan on drilling the remains of the old stud out, and following Old BR's plan for a good thread insert. Helicoils are almost impossible to install if you have an imperfect hole; like the remains of a steel stud on the very edge of a hole in an aluminum part.

Hope this helps....

 

[Rustydog2010]

Using oxy on a aluminum head would be pretty risky. Also on a blind hole. It could turn pretty bad, quickly.