My first electric go kart

[etoile]

Dear all,

I am Heiko, 44 ,living in Germany, having 2 boys 8+10 years.

Actually we are setting up a electric go kart - so far so good.
The kart is handwelded wit lots of kart add on parts e.g. brake, tyres, etc.

The motor used is a MY 1016 from an electric scooter with 11 teeth sprocket. The axle is driven by a 55 teeth sprocket.

Unfortunately I didn't find the right controller yet...

I started with a 20 Amps "toy" controller from china for 10 Eur that has gone up to smoke very soon...

Then I bought a 60 Amp Controller which last longer, but after 5 min he did the same...

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Drehzahlstel...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Do I need to go up to 100+ Amps??

After reading the forum I figured out some controller like Curtis 1225...would that be the right controller for my application?

If I would go for curtis 1225, what poti would be the right one?

Any recommendation?

Thanks for a good feedback/discussion.

Cheers,

Heiko

 

[itsid]

the motor itself is unable to draw more than maybe 15 Amps.
the controller you got likely overheated because the motor was stalling
too much weight, too high gear ratio... that kind of stuff

The motor you have is ungeared thus running at around 3k rpm maybe more.
5:1 ratio will not work

A 5:1 ratio works with it's geared down sibling (running at 900 rpm or so)

Chances are, by now, you not only fried two controllers,
but you also overheated the motor itself beyond repair I'm afraid.
Those permanent magnets inside do not deal well with heat
(they loose magnetic strength, thus the motor looses power)
You might even have shorted one or two layers in the coil, so that the motor can draw more power but doesn't even produce it's nominal power.

Let me guess:
you bench tested the 'toy' controller and everything seemed to work fine,
it even did when everything was on the kart with a jacked up rear...

and when your boys hopped on it didn't move (or barely moved) then since kids don't know..
"more is more" and the controller released that magic smoke.

Am I close?

Anyways, slap on a 90T axle sprocket (this is a #25 pitch chain right?)
buy another one of the toy controllers (man I hope you talk about a scooter controller for vehicle application, not one of those static appliance crap you linked.. find a yinlun controller.. IIRC that's the one UNITE recommended.
20 Amps should do, 30 should keep the controller from overheating even at worse.
Buy a new motor (yes.. I'm fairly certain your's is toast.. otherwise it wouldn't have been able to fry a 60Amp controller)
and try again.
(IYAM buy a 36V 1000W motor [my1020] and it's matching controller [60Amps])

otherwise your kids will be extremely disappointed by the performance of that kart.

Talking of which..
that's a proper racing kart frontend.. too bad you couldn't keep the rest of the Sodi kart as well

'sid

 

[etoile]

Hi Sid, thanks for your precious feedback

Yes, you are right not only close - the motor did well when jacked up...after putting the kart on wheels it started moving...then smoke appeared ;-)

The toy controller used is this one - static appliance crap

http://www.ebay.de/itm/10-60V-20A-P...343472?hash=item5b344ad570:g:izcAAOSwRH5XKFNK

The chain is #25, correct...I have found a 80T axle sprocket (WS 25H1) which would fit to my setup - will that do the job too?

https://forandor.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=80&product_id=156

I even found a bundle - motor + controller + poti

https://forandor.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=103&product_id=303

If not unsing the bundle, could you recommend a controller? by posting a link?

The kart is chassis a challenge for the MY1016 - to be honest it quite heavy...the front is really from a racing kart. Unfortunately I only got the already half cut front...thought it fits to the rest - a very unique chassis

Cheers,

Heiko

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

I have a question: Why aren't you guys just communicating in German? Most (not all) of us English speaking folks don't know anything about this witchcraft you call "electricity".

 

[itsid]

Hi Sid, thanks for your precious feedback

Yes, you are right not only close - the motor did well when jacked up...after putting the kart on wheels it started moving...then smoke appeared ;-)

The toy controller used is this one - static appliance crap

http://www.ebay.de/itm/10-60V-20A-P...343472?hash=item5b344ad570:g:izcAAOSwRH5XKFNK

The chain is #25, correct...I have found a 80T axle sprocket (WS 25H1) which would fit to my setup - will that do the job too?

https://forandor.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=80&product_id=156

I even found a bundle - motor + controller + poti

https://forandor.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=103&product_id=303

If not unsing the bundle, could you recommend a controller? by posting a link?

The kart is chassis a challenge for the MY1016 - to be honest it quite heavy...the front is really from a racing kart. Unfortunately I only got the already half cut front...thought it fits to the rest - a very unique chassis

Cheers,

Heiko

Too bad, sometimes I hate being correct
Check out my essence thread,
it talks about what kind of motorpower one would need
find it here

And for good reason the first most essential parts calculate Force, not power,
Then you can either multiply by your target speed to know the power you need,
or in your case divide the motor power you have by the Force you calculated and get the speed your motor will be able to reach.
(then gear accordingly... if you need help with that let me know)
The bundle seems quite good tbh.
the "drive" controller in said bundle (a yinlun judging by the green triangle )
is what you want.
static appliance controllers are meant and designed to keep a certain speed, they do not encorporate undervoltage protection or a brake trigger (disabling the motor when the brake is engaged)
generally.. as soon as you have a throttle of sorts and want to move.. you want to make sure brake and motor aren't fighting each other and your batteries are not completely drained and such.
That's why

Back to the bundle:
the motor alone is ~100 bucks, the controller can be found for 20 occasionally and a decent throttle sometimes as much as 50 (that looks like a good 20 bucks item to me)
So elsewhere you'll need to pay ~140 bucks plus shipping
for a set like that
forandor charges 167 for the set, 27 bucks for convenience not too bad IMHO.

if you want to save a Euro or two..
this motor:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/36V-1000W-Mo...873005?hash=item33d326e26d:g:W0cAAOSw2yRZlH0d
Since there's no depiction of the controller mentioned... ask the seller..
if it comes without:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/36V-Electric...173364&hash=item4b0dbfbf1c:g:Mo0AAOSwA3dYSPdq
this should be able to deal with it (the yiyun [that's what the company is called] you can find at forandors website for 25 bucks)

cheap throttle (baaad shipping since that's US based)
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Universal-El...933951&hash=item2360f85f95:g:tB4AAOSwKoRZYbJw

difficult to find such things nearby at times (even within europe at times)
you might need to be patient or search on alibaba.com (directly from china, but shipping is much better than from the other side of the pond)
but most of the time you'll find most if not all on ebay for a decent price.

I have a question: Why aren't you guys just communicating in German? Most (not all) of us English speaking folks don't know anything about this witchcraft you call "electricity".

Weil das Anderen gegenüber unfassbar unhöflich wäre auf einem englischsprachigen Forum
that's why

'sid

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

I would think it was cool, not rude. As usual Sid, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

[etoile]

Thanks sid your your recommendations.

I was browsing through your formulas coming up with the result the 1000W motor seems not too bad ;-)

Btw the MY1020 has got a T8F sprocket - means I have to adapt the axle sprocket and chain to T8F...the biggest sprocket I have found for my axle (diameter 30mm) has got 65 Teeth - which will give me only a ratio of 1:5,9...

How do you figure out the appropriate ratio for a setup? Is there a formula too or by experience?

Theorie: If my existing motor is against all assumptions still working (MY2016) I could give it a try with a 80T sprocket #25 before changing completely the setup to T8F??

Cheers,

Heiko

 

[itsid]

https://www.elektromoped.at/de/ritzel-ketten-kettenraeder/
has T8F sprockets with 80 and 110 teeth as well.
But yes, the options are few if you do not count industrial sprockets.

#25 chain is much weaker than T8F (which has a higher tensile strength than racing kart chain [219H])

Anyways, gear ratio is a bit of a pain,
since to calculate the math you'd need to know exact weights, friction losses and whatnot

But those motors are way more powerfull than one would think they are.
~4:1 ratio with a 1kW my1020 is possible
(the motor will heat up very quickly which causes baaaad sideefects but it will move the kart)

personally I'd say calculate the force required to move up the steepest hill you can find in your vicinity as in my thread from above.
let's assume you'll need 120N

You have 11" wheels right? (28cm in diameter) that makes it a required torque of ~17Nm
(120 * 0.14 = 16.8)
the motor has 3.2Nm on it's shaft 16.8 / 3.2 = 5.25

a 5.25:1 ratio should get you up that hill. (still with some excessive heat on the motor)

the other way around:
1000W / 120N = 8.3 m/s (~30km/h)

gearing for 30km/h with 28cm diameter wheels and a 3000rpm motor means again 5.25:1 ratio
(not coincidentally )
the 5.9:1 you're ending up with would require a bit of self control for your boys not to overheat the motor or controller for that matter, but it'll work!

personally I'd go for 7:1 to not only slow the kart down slightly (~23km/h)
but also to keep the motor cool, since telling a kid to not push the pedal to the floor for more than 10 seconds is easily forgotten after ..well 5 seconds

A bit of margin might work in your favor.. also: it improves the acceleration quite a bit

I'd experiment to find a ratio you and your kids are happy with,
start low (high tooth count on the axle) and work yourself up (down in toothcounts) not the other way around

Same math applies to your 250W motor, but it has just a quarter of the power to move the same weight;
sooo 4:1 ratio as the highest known to work on a 1000W makes it a 16:1 ratio for a 250W ratio to not immediately overheat.
(that's where a 80T sprocket might not do the trick )
a jackshaft can fix that (1:4 motor to jackshaft and another 1:4 jackshaft to axle)

again weight, driver, road.. all plays an important role if a setup works or not.
but if you're willing to give it a try, I'm not stopping you
In fact I'd be curious to know more exact limits of these motors so I'd ask you to report back,
but I myself wouldn't want to waste money trying to be honest... so yeah *shrugs*

'sid

 

[etoile]

Sid, I am deeply impressed by your knowledge

Thanks for all your input - it helps a lot

Do you have an idea how to fix these 80T sprocket on a 30mm axle?
https://www.elektromoped.at/de/t8f-80z-laser-kettenrad.html

The hub I actually have does not cope with the dimensions (Lochkreis) of the new 80T sprocket...the kart hubs (radstern) have also different fixing dimensions (Lochkreis 58mm)...and the are no specific axle hubs for those sprockets offered cause they all fix it on the wheel...

Cheers,

Heiko

 

[itsid]

hehe mounting a sprocket on a wheelhub... why not

Anyways, yes .. no, there is no easy way to crossfit such parts I'm afraid.

I think I'd swap to 219 chain just to be sure I get all the sprockets I need and they fit a sprocket hub for a kart axle

but you can get a smaller size bolt hole circle sprocket and redrill the bolt holes and recut the center bore when necessary (that one is smaller than your axle.. soooo yeah )

'sid

 

[etoile]

..all the new parts are ordered now...

The 80T T8F sprocket from elektromoped fits to my existing fixture (Freilaufrad)...

https://www.elektromoped.at/de/t8f-80zf-freilauf-kettenrad.html

...with 65mm Lochkreis...at least on the paper...let's see ;-)

https://forandor.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=79_81&product_id=185

Cheers,

Heiko

 

[itsid]

I'll keep my fingers crossed.

'sid

 

[zogthegreat]

Hi etoile,

Tut mir leid um mein Deutsch, es ist schon ungefähr 30 Jahre her, seit ich es gesprochen habe (ich war früher in der Flugplatz Hahn in den frühen 1990er Jahren stationiert).

Wenn du noch keinen Controller gefunden hast, kannst du eines davon ausprobieren:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391750654895?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

Ich benutze sie auf meiner veränderten Razor E300 und ich war sehr glücklich mit ihnen. Die können bis zu 150a und sind wirklich einfach zu installieren. Du brauchst auch so etwas:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150A-Car-Au...ash=item4af1404fb9:g:RA4AAOSwKIpWBE2P&vxp=mtr

oder dieses:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/382128594905?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

Da der Regler keinen Aus-Schalter hat.

Ich hoffe das hilft.

zog

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

Zog is trying to be helpful. Nice.

 

[itsid]

Hi etoile,

Tut mir leid um mein Deutsch.........
Ich hoffe das hilft.

zog

No worries zog,
your german is much better than some of the english
around here

I don't agree on the controller though..
especially not that 150A rating you mentioned;
not since the product description limits it at 25A (continuous I assume)
and 45A peak.

It'd still fit the 250W motor,
the 1000W motor will likely chew it up and spit it in the bin within a minute though

'sid

 

[zogthegreat]

HI itsid,

Oops! Sorry, that was for a CH43B, (a Chinese knock off of a Chinese controller!). Here is the link for the YK43B:

http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=188

and the spec page:

http://www.tncscooters.com/YK43B.php

I know that the product description rates it at 100a max, however, real world experience, (along with an amp meter!), has shown me that it can handle double that amount.

The controller that I referenced is the one that I use on my Razor E300 with a Unite 36v 1000w motor, 11/55 or 11/80 ratio, (depending on terrain). I've also used on my daughters Razor Pocket mod with a Unite 36v, 800w, 11/80 with no problems.

I've tried several Chinese "aluminum box" controllers like the referenced, (http://www.ebay.de/itm/36V-Electric...173364&hash=item4b0dbfbf1c:g:Mo0AAOSwA3dYSPdq), and without opening them up and modding them, (higher quality capacitors, better heat sinks, shunts to keep the silly things from blowing up), I tend to fry them fairly quickly. I've also used a Kelly KDZ48200, (http://kellycontroller.com/kdz4820024v-48v200aseriespm-p-951.html), on one of my projects. As nice as it is, I still prefer the YK43B. It's simple and just works.

The YK43B gives me the joy of smoking cars at stop lights!

 

[Functional Artist]

Hi etoile,

Tut mir leid um mein Deutsch, es ist schon ungefähr 30 Jahre her, seit ich es gesprochen habe (ich war früher in der Flugplatz Hahn in den frühen 1990er Jahren stationiert).

Wenn du noch keinen Controller gefunden hast, kannst du eines davon ausprobieren:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391750654895?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

Ich benutze sie auf meiner veränderten Razor E300 und ich war sehr glücklich mit ihnen. Die können bis zu 150a und sind wirklich einfach zu installieren. Du brauchst auch so etwas:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150A-Car-Au...ash=item4af1404fb9:g:RA4AAOSwKIpWBE2P&vxp=mtr

oder dieses:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/382128594905?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

Da der Regler keinen Aus-Schalter hat.

Ich hoffe das hilft.

zog

WHAT?!

I DON'T GET IT

sprekenze English, plez'

 

[zogthegreat]

WHAT?!

I DON'T GET IT

sprekenze English, plez'

Guten tag Herr Functional Artist!

LOL, after spending the last 20 years in Quebec and having people yelling at me to speak in French, it's nice to have someone tell me to speak in English!

I was telling etoile that if he hadn't found a controller yet, he could try the YK43B, (although I accidentally referenced the CH43B).

I have used this controller on several builds and I'm extremely satisfied with it. 2 wires for power, 2 wires to the motor and a plug-in throttle, it works like a charm. The only drawback is that it doesn't have a on/off switch, so you have to have some kind of disconnect switch to power it down, (I like to use a in-line fuse like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/150A-Car-Au...ash=item4af1404fb9:g:RA4AAOSwKIpWBE2P&vxp=mtr).

 

[itsid]

HI itsid,

Oops! Sorry, that was for a CH43B, (a Chinese knock off of a Chinese controller!). Here is the link for the YK43B:

http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=188

and the spec page:

http://www.tncscooters.com/YK43B.php

I know that the product description rates it at 100a max, however, real world experience, (along with an amp meter!), has shown me that it can handle double that amount.

The controller that I referenced is the one that I use on my Razor E300 with a Unite 36v 1000w motor, 11/55 or 11/80 ratio, (depending on terrain). I've also used on my daughters Razor Pocket mod with a Unite 36v, 800w, 11/80 with no problems.

I've tried several Chinese "aluminum box" controllers like the referenced, (http://www.ebay.de/itm/36V-Electric...173364&hash=item4b0dbfbf1c:g:Mo0AAOSwA3dYSPdq), and without opening them up and modding them, (higher quality capacitors, better heat sinks, shunts to keep the silly things from blowing up), I tend to fry them fairly quickly. I've also used a Kelly KDZ48200, (http://kellycontroller.com/kdz4820024v-48v200aseriespm-p-951.html), on one of my projects. As nice as it is, I still prefer the YK43B. It's simple and just works.

The YK43B gives me the joy of smoking cars at stop lights!

Okay, the yiyun version..
still according to the yiyun specs
(even listed on tncscooters)

This controller package includes a twist grip throttle wired to fit the controller and a matching hand grip.
Rated Voltage 24 to 36 Volts Usable Motor ≤ 700 Watts.
Rated Voltage 48 to 60 Volts Usable Motor ≤ 1000 Watts

Soo 700W / 36V ≤ 20 Amps
700W / 24V ≤ 30 Amps

so far the ratings.. peak 45 seems plausible, given it's a sealed controller maybe a bit more
since the big mosfets usually come in 20A or 25A ratings.. 50 or 60 for bursts is viable depending if it uses two or three.

I doubt it has four or five big ones though, which would push it in the 100Amps + region.

if it's gate free and only regulating via solenoids
(it's too small for a solenoid really .. it also makes very little sense and would be noise as frick)
it could forward all the ColdCranking amps of the battery where 100 to 150Amps is not unseen.
but that'd kill the batpack if applied for too long.

Anyways, if I'm not mistaking you have the 36V 1000W my1020 (or ZY derivative)
that motor FAIK is able to draw up to 1800W electrical max
which means it cannot draw more than 50 Amps..
not without a short circuit in the coils that is.

and from this:

Hi rd350lc,
... a 36v 1000w motor,
... a YK43B controller
....
According to my amp meter, going up the hill sucks down 45 - 50 amps.

...At half throttle, I draw around 25 amps

zog

Please excuse me when I say I still HIGHLY doubt it can forward 150Amps reliably.

It MIGHT be able to withstand the abuse of a 1000W motor (max 50Amps) alright
(still baffling to me.. but okay, maybe it's of better quality than anticipated)
three times as much.. Nope...I don't believe it.

Especially since you'd need three motors like the one you have nearly stalling to draw that kind of current in the first place.

Don't forget that the caps can create some serious punch and give a false reading on an amp meter;
switching currents (or readings thereof to be precise)
are never an indicator of the controller's power
(at best an indicator of the caps used)

Anyways, that controller is nice and simple and small..
I like it.. if you say it handles your 36V 1kW motor well, I'm impressed
but I'd trust that.
Soo indeed it'd be a nice option

I especially like the small footprint of it, maybe I want one

but 150A is still a "No" I'm afraid.

'sid