Motor decision

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Samj

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Hello all..really glad to have this forum and be on it. I've read many posts and can't seem to find me answer so am hoping someone can point me to the right direction.
Am "trying" to built my 1st go kart..its going to be mainly on grass with a little bit of incline but not a lot am guessing 5deg..am also guessing the max weight with the driver 500lbs including motor and battery. The rear tire is 18x9.5-8.
I was thinking getting 2x 1000w unite motor with 2 controller with a gear ration 5:1 10t on the drive which will be around $350 my concern is if that's going even to handle the load on grass. Am looking around 10-15mph 6s-8s on grass and ~20mph top speed flat
My second option cost $850 The golden motor 3kw

I've read multiple post on different forums good and bad experience..
Which one will be best for me in your opinion..?motenergy/forklift/golf cart motors are a bit off budget it's $1000+

Thanks
The prices are in Canadian $
 

MTNSleder

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I only work with Canadian tire dollars sorry.... :D

IDK your top speeds sound quite slow for a 5:1 ratio bit I guess that depends on what rpm your motor spins.. if your looking to go slow and have torque 6:1 ratio seems to be the preferred gear ratio around here...
 

Samj

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Lol thanks for the reply..i said a 5:1 just because someone who sells unite motors advice the ratio..but 6:1 could work also..the golden motor one is 3000-5000rpm and the unite motor is my1020 which is 3600rpm..right now am now concern about the top speed..i just want to get it moving with the speed above..im more concerned about the load and the motor am going to choose..
 

itsid

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the 5:1 ratio is unlikely to work well with tyres that size I think...

tough to tell for sure, but you can try and do some math from my "essential thread"
it's a bit tough to follow at first but as a canadian you should at least be familiar with metrics :lolgoku:

just a bit of math really.

Once your power is sorted for the speed you want or should expect (regarding the wheelsize weight and such)
it's as simple as finding the correct wheel rpms for your speed.

the motor spins at 3000 rpms w/o load and I think should still do 2600 with load (maybe 2800 even)
20mph are roughly 9m/s and with an 18" rear that's 376 rpms if I'm not mistaking
soo we talk about ~ 7:1 ratio (assuming 2600-2800 engine rpms)

Anyways, the real (or say bigger) issue here is the two motors..
two controllers is INDEED the way to go for a two motor setup IMHO,
but you need to make absoulutely suret hat both motors are at least from the same batch
to have them as identical as possible and the same should be done for the controllers.

and it gets worse.. with a single pedal signal (which is the easier way of achieving this)
you need to connect to both controllers making sure the wiring is of identical resistance (length and diameter that is) to prevent an inconsitency in the signal read by the controller.

Now ideally you have two motors running at the exact same speed.. (kart jacked up)
but you STILL need to make sure both motors see the exact same load as well.
So scrap all ideas about differentials or individually powered wheels.
You MUST connect both motors to a single live axle!
While it's not too critical on paved road, a patch of slippery grass or sticky mud on just one wheel
could (and likely will) mess up a motor and/or one controller badly off road!

So be aware, that this is not as trivial as it seems at first.

mismatching motors or controllers from too different batches of the manufacturer can cause one set to heat up (and wear out) more than the other and consequently cause damage to the entire setup if you're not aware or unable to fix that inconsitency.

just saying ;)

'sid
 

Samj

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Thanks for the reply.

I did try several times to read your pinned post but everytime I got lost along the way..
It is a live axle.
I really didn't think of uneven load on uneven terrain :/ hmm..gm 3kw went top on my list again :/

How big of a difference is the gm3kw and me0909?
 

Samj

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Well my1020 is cheap compared to motenergy or goldenmotors and such..and with that kind of weight based from understanding (which i could be wrong in many ways) 2 motors is needed if I chose my1020
 

Functional Artist

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Anyways, the real (or say bigger) issue here is the two motors..
two controllers is INDEED the way to go for a two motor setup IMHO,
but you need to make absoulutely suret hat both motors are at least from the same batch
to have them as identical as possible and the same should be done for the controllers.

and it gets worse.. with a single pedal signal (which is the easier way of achieving this)
you need to connect to both controllers making sure the wiring is of identical resistance (length and diameter that is) to prevent an inconsitency in the signal read by the controller.

Now ideally you have two motors running at the exact same speed.. (kart jacked up)
but you STILL need to make sure both motors see the exact same load as well.
So scrap all ideas about differentials or individually powered wheels.
You MUST connect both motors to a single live axle!
While it's not too critical on paved road, a patch of slippery grass or sticky mud on just one wheel
could (and likely will) mess up a motor and/or one controller badly off road!

So be aware, that this is not as trivial as it seems at first.

mismatching motors or controllers from too different batches of the manufacturer can cause one set to heat up (and wear out) more than the other and consequently cause damage to the entire setup if you're not aware or unable to fix that inconsitency.

just saying ;)

'sid


Why do moth motors need to see the exact same load?

Is that statement theoretical or have you tried this in the real world?

I would think that is one of the beauties of electric motors on vehicles (flexability)

One can hook an electric motor to

...a live axle

...to a single wheel (one wheel peel)

...one to each rear wheel

...or even one to all (4) wheels (a 4x4 go kart) :2guns:


An electric motor can be mounted

...to the wheel (hub motor)

...in front of the driven wheel

...behind it

...above it

...or even up under the seat


We are no longer stuck with just a stationary power plant & limited drive train possibilities


How does one find matching "Chinese" stuff?

Even if a retailer just got a fresh order in, how do you know what matches what or what came from what batch?

Most sellers don't know shirt about the stuff they sell. (especially Chinese stuff) :ack2:
 

Samj

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Hey functional artist what's the weight of ur e lemon aid and el dingo?I saw couple of ur vid before even register on here..
 

itsid

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500lbs and 18" wheels is not trivial with an inclination to climb

Hmm I hoped my explanation was easy enough to follow,
especially since your values are very close to my examples (except for the weight!)
5° inclination, 9m/s desired top speed.. is identical...

Anyways.. let's check...
500 lbs = 227 kg (rounded)

so to get up such 5° inclination:
227 kg * 9.81 m/s² * sin(5) = 194 N

add speed (times 9 m/s):
1746,76 Watts
to go up that inclination at 20 mph...

but that's not what you asked for.. you asked for 10-15 mph uphill..

10 mph = 4.47 m/s ( or 868 Watts )
15 mph = 6.7 m/s ( or 1300 Watts )

as you can see.. uphill is not an issue with just one 1kW my1020 if you're okay with just 10mph.

flat road top speed of 20 mph is doable with again just over 800W (820 or so for a 227kg kart)
no worries there.

Again, a single motor is enough if you do not insist on 15mph or more up a 5° inclination.

And, with a 7:1 gear ratio (well frankly.. IDK the exact rpms under that kind of load.. but somewhere between 6.9:1 and 7.4:1 is very very likely)
should dial in for the 20mph top speed as I said (the numbers above turned out to be correct ;) 376 wheel rpms needed with 18" wheels)

And I'm rather confident that the motor is capable of doing exactly that rather easily to be honest.

Anyways, a second motor will make it... uhm let's say .. snappier ;)
and overall make it appear effortless. (even uphill at speed)

you could even add a few mph to the top speed (i.e. raise the gear ratio to say 6:1 for ~25mph)

Anyways... 227 kg is NOT much considering the weight of an adult driver (say 75kg) and a set of batteries that last longer than 30 minutes (another 75kg)
a set of wheels (say 20kg) leaves no more than 57kg for chassis, steering components, axle, sprockets, brake, seat, motor and controller and whatnot...

So I wouldn't gear higher than 6:1 really not with tyres that large and the good chance of unwillingly adding another 50-60 lbs ;)

[EDIT]

Why do moth motors need to see the exact same load?

Is that statement theoretical or have you tried this in the real world?
.......
How does one find matching "Chinese" stuff?

Even if a retailer just got a fresh order in, how do you know what matches what or what came from what batch?

Most sellers don't know shirt about the stuff they sell. (especially Chinese stuff) :ack2:

real world (but smaller "non-EV" motors I admit)
The thing is, that even IF both motors are running at the same speed
(both power one axle/wheel whatever)
they do NOT do the same work, a 5% difference in current results in a 10% difference in work (one doing 55% of the work the other just 45%)
and while that's not an issue as long as the motor that's doing MORE work is below it's limits.

think of it as running a 800W and a 350W motor together for a 1100W task.
(I bet you cringe at that idea)
it's exaggerated, true, but the same rule applies.

it starts to become a huge issue as soon as one motor overheats,
since then, all of a sudden it looses a serious fraction of it's power (likely fails completely) and the other motor suddenly has to do all the work and dies soon after.


We (well most of us here) tend to reach for the limits (more speed, steeper hills to climb, testing the equipment as hard and relentlessly as possible)
That's why a well levelled set is the only combination I would suggest.

Reliability is essential if you're not willing to spend that money twice.

And you're right, you cannot be 100% sure about matching motors and or controllers.
but if a seller got a fresh batch directly from the mfg and not some wholesale chances are it's one batch.
(do you think they have spare motors on layaway to put in a box six weeks later or something? I doubt it.. from the belt to the box as they are tested...)

same holds true for the controller.

If you do not buy off ebay but from alibaba you can contact the manufacturer they will even send you motors with consecutive serial numbers if you ask them to I bet

And while there's still a chance the motors do not perfectly match,
it's the best chance you got.

'sid
 

Samj

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Thanks again Sid! That was very clear!!
I know the dual was mention to be in parallel but I found a I saw some month ago he had it in series with a live axle..would that work? Unfortunately he did not talk in the vid

https://youtu.be/EAGscEOg81I
 

itsid

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The worst of all ideas are those that work just long enough to make a video for youtube.
Things like that (as well as RC motors on Karts) make me really angry,
since it lures people into believing that those things are actually a "good idea".

Sorry, NO.. not at all!
There is exactly no benefit in doing so,
you could rather run both motors from a single controller in parallel (and even that is not a smart move IMHO but at least much better than running motors in series)

'sid
 

Samj

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thats what i thought...i still have one last question..well for now lol and thanks again for replying/clearing things out..I decided to go with 1 motor for now and if I will have to upgrade in a far future I will probably get a Motenergy or something similar..

I saw some my1020/zy1020 1000w with gear reduction like in the link below..is it better to take that or just the my1020 regular/standard../ and if thats the case i guess my ratio will have to change as well?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1000W-48-V-D...449407?hash=item25da407d3f:g:eoYAAOSwAO9ZWYj8
 
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