Is it the red spring thing or gearing?

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leo1287

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I took my trike for its break in run yesterday. Could smell the belt on the BMI TAV slipping and eventually grab.
The present gearing:
TAV sprocket-10T
JS driver-28T
JS driven-10T
Axle sprocket-60T
Tire dia.-22"X11"-8
I believe that this gives a 16+:1 rear gear ratio. Is this correct? I do not think I am low enough yet. What gear final ratio should I be going for?
I also vaguely remember on one of T-Mans mini bike videos where he showed that the back plate on his TC would flex and it was not under load. This could contribute to slippage or not?
Would changing to the Comet yellow spring help?
Would changing to a 7" driven help?
 

pRoFiT

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So pics would be nice.

22" tires? probably a 9:1 ratio. typical is 6:1 on a 12-15" tire.

You have a TC then a jackshaft. Yah 16+:1 is too much.

7 is going to be worse. you almost want a 1:1 on the jackshaft..

maybe a 3:2 on the jackshaft would give you 9:1. so 12/4, 24/8, etc...

speed calc here. typical 6.5hp predator runs 3600 rpm. http://www.diygokarts.com/speed-calculator.html ~5000+ if governor removed.

bmi has a jackshaft calc http://www.bmikarts.com/Gear-Ratio-Calculator-for-Jackshaft-Setup_ep_113-1.html



Although a 16:1 would give you major low end. top out about 15mph. maybe thats what you want?
 

Joe-405

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It's a 16.8-1 unless your sprockets are reversed then its a 2.13-1 ratio.
 

itsid

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16.8:1 plus TC internals give you something in the 45:1 ratio at take off
torque wise that's more than enough to get going.

yes the 7" driven would increase that further (to 52.5:1)
but you cannot install it TavKits backplate anyways so why bother thinking about it?
the yellow spring is not even for the tav30.. NO.. if you want a heavier preload,
change to the third hole, if that's not enough there's a IIRC black Spring that's slightly heavier
made for the series 30. (I doubt you'll need that at all)

IF the gear ratio you gave us is correct (miscounted perhaps?)
I cannot imagine why you cannot move but burn belts.
The ONE thing that might be an issue is that you cannot for some reason rev the engine past 2k rpm,
which the TC seriously needs to lock up on the belt properly
(so a confident take off is needed.. feathering it will kill it!)

But that you would've noticed, right?

Anyways, post a pic of what you have to givve us a better idea
 
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pRoFiT

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16:1 should be plenty low enough, even for 22" tyres.

Profit, I think you have your gear ratios the wrong way around

Okay so how fast does 16:1 on 22" tires get him going? is it 15mph? seems slow.
 

leo1287

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Pictures are on the Atomic Zombie thread.
I have changed my thoughts that I am not geared low enough, dug a hole with the drive wheel and had to toss s piece of concrete in the hole to move forward. The Dirt Devil tires really dig.
I have the red spring ine the torque hole and it seems to go into overdrive when the rpm's rise enough.
Overall I am pleased with the way it is turning out.
 

itsid

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it might be the image.. but it seems like the driver is sticking out too much (i.e. the belt is no running perfectly perpendicular to the shafts.

Make sure the INSIDE of the inner sheaves are perfectly aligned
and do not measure against the backplate (offset front face and such)

that gives you an extra month or two of belt life ;)

And yes, belts wear in, just slightly though,
once the thread is fraying out, the belt is more likely worn out not in ;)

'sid
 

leo1287

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I straight edged the backing plates and had to add one thin washer to the driver to align.
Used to be a machinist and still have my tools, would not want to have to buy them today.
Everything seems to be working fine now.
 

leo1287

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Ordered a Comet belt from BMI and a yellow spring for the driven.
I am also going to raise the jackshaft to allow me to run the disc brake rotor and a larger JSin sprocket. Then I will use a smaller sprocket on the axle to give more ground clearance while keeping a low ratio.
 

itsid

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What??
Why the yellow Spring?
It's for a Series 40;
you're running a Series 30 TC
The spring is not meant for your setup.
Installing it is NOT recommended!

'sid
 

leo1287

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Okay Sid, I have installed the yellow spring and a new belt on the 3-wheeler. It made a difference.
Why should I not use the yellow spring? What should I use to get the claimed changes from the yellow spring? Want to stay in lower rpm range longer.
I think I found the reason I tossed and broke a chain. Had the tensioner on the power side of the chain instead of the return side. Made a new tensioner and this one is held in place with a spring. Working much better.
 

leo1287

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TC questions for Sid

Sid,

I have to admit that I am new at this game and would be happy for all the advice you are willing to give.
My 3-wheeler build is based on what I have read about others doing. The TAV2 from BMI is not a precision part, just trying to get the thing to work the best I can.
I have installed a new Comet belt, a yellow spring in the driven, cleaned and re-lubed the driver.If the yellow spring is not meant for the TAV, are there replacement springs for the driven.
It seems yhat the belt runs hot and I seem to remember that you saying that a hot belt is because of too high a gearing. At 16.8:1 (now) the belt runs hot. I intend to change the JS1 to 45T and the final drive sprocket to 45T also giving a little over 20:1 final.
Sid, What I am looking for is the best set up for my TAV2 clone.
 

itsid

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the yellow spring is not made for a series 30 TC.. period.
could it work?.. possibly,
could it cause unforseen issues?... very likely,
Am I willing to give a flying shirt about those in case you install a yellow spring although told it's not made for the TC you're using?.... Highly unlikely ;)

The spring in a TC doesn't do much except for clamping the belt as long as it can as hard as it can.
The yellow spring is too stiff, considering it's made to spread it's force amongst a much bigger belt (not only wider but taller.. which is the point here)

You don't like the original spring? well tough luck!
215699A is the only spring there is (it's green on comets and red on clones)

Still a hot belt.. well still no pics of your kart or setup, have we?

I bet it's not an issue of the TC at all to be honest..
I'd assume a miscounted ratio
since frankly you'd have a crapton of torque at takeoff.. (~630Nm)
so if the engine can rev past 2500rpms and the kart doesn't weigh more than ~700kg (1500lbs!!!).
even a 7hp engine shouldn't have much of a problem moving it.

I'd bet you miscounted sprocket teeth,
or there's something you are not aware of...
like having installed a throttle stop, a seized bearing, a binding brake, a worn engine
IDK.. as long as you don't show pics, we can't tell or even make an assumption really.

And frankly.. asking the same thing again, ignoring all advice and questions about pics and such...
No, that's not going to get you any bonus points.

And yes, that means I saw you asking me in your thread and just ignored you as much as you ignored previous advice.

threads MERGED!

'sid
 

KartFab

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ive messed with the spring settings on my torque converter, and can say that i really like it on the middle hole (stock) position. Not enough spring tension and the engine just pulls the belt to high ratio quick, too much tension and it takes forever to shift to high gear.

Good luck with your build. not knowing orientation of drive/driven/ 30 series/40 series/actual gearing/actual alignment etc is not helping us, especially because you arent posting pics. If you could just click on the "go advanced" button and then click on the paperclip icon and upload a few pics of the torque converter from a few different angles.... it would help. A little effort in explaining what you have goes a long way.

The way you explained your gearing has me scratching my head too, because you should have so much torque with no belt slipping at all.... and go kinda slow.
 

leo1287

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Sid,

At present I have aTAV2 frthe chain runs to a 28om BMI with 10T#41 chain. From the 10T it runs to a 28T on the jackshaft. The jackshaft out is 10T going to a 60T final drive. That equates to 16.8:1 final drive.
Pictures of the machine are in the Timber Wolf thread.

---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

"Atomic Zombie Timber Wolf" is the thread with pictures,
 

KartFab

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Ok, the only thing I can think of is that the intake/exhaust mods have made the engine exceed the HP rating of the torque converter.
 

itsid

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Soo.. why not tell us earlier where we could find them then?

Anywhoo.. good.. two things I recognize, both might be an image issue more than a mechanical thing,
but check em:
1) make sure the belt runs perectly straight and perpedicular to both the jackshaft and more importantly the PTO (your crankshaft)
It appears your driver is too far out, which can be caused by the fisheye effect of phone cameras.. but it might be a mechanical misalignment.
Check that (and if necessary fix that)
a crooked belt heats up more quickly and more drastically than a straight running belt.

2) that chain tensioner is hopefully spring loaded and can move away from the chain, else that chain looks to be too tight.
a too tight chain fails quickly it also puts stress on all linked parts.

btw: bearings work best if they sit as close as possible to the load
(in your case the sprockets)
the further they are from the load the bigger the lever (and bigger the force) to bend the shaft.

that together with a tight chain can cause the bearing to heat up quickly..
boil off the lubrication and finally seize up.

So take care, and if possible imporve pillow block location.

Now, since that's out of the way..
jack up the rear frame securely so that the wheels are off the ground [and away from anything they could propell in your direction;)];
start the engine, and use the twist throttle to rev the enige up
(better ask someone else to do so since your eyes will be needed on the opposite end of things)
observe the uncovered TC.. the belt should almost immediately drop all the way down on the driven, and the belt should peak above the outer rim of the driver slightly.

as soon as the rpms are not climbing any longer you can kill the engine again.
Now touch the driver bell (as soon as it stopped rotating of course)
it must not be hot.. barely above ambient temp is okay.. warm is almost not.
same goes for the belt.
It should get hot in such a short amount of time, not even warm really.

that would lead me to assume your driver weights are not engaging properly
(too low rpm.. likely a throttle connection error)
so that the driver isn't providing enough clamping force on the belt.
(wait.. you haven't lubed the sheaves, have you?? that'd be the exact opposite of a good idea ;) If you had by accident.. clean them with acetone)

Best: take a video of that short rev up and show us.
(we need to see the TC driver and driven at least)

If you're unsure about the rpms your engine provides, get a small tach and attach it,
for now (if you have an android phone) I think there's a audio tach on the google play store IIRC [IDK if it's free or not though]
that could at least give you an idea for now.

Also, after checking the belt and driver bell for overheating (or the hint thereof)
check the JS bearings as well... I still have a feeling that final chain is a hair too tight and heats up at least one of the pillow blocks..
while you're at it, you can quickly check that too.

Any squeaking, squealing, scratching noises?
find the origin and fix that as well.

Work your way away from the engine
ie. remove the TC -> JS chain and give it a try.. if everythign's fine
(rpm hits 3600, TC belt is climbin happily above the driver edge, belt and bell stay cool),
reinstall and remove the JS->axle chain.
jackshaft bearings stay cool as well, no odd sounds...
manually spin the wheels with the chain still off
bearings make no sound at all, no wobble, no misalignment, no binding?
reconenct the JS-> axle chain (check for enough play)

if you came this far without finding any issue whatsoever,
your engine is the one thing unchecked.
maybe it's not running properly (serious lack of compression or something) and isn't providing the power you'll need (I expect it to be 6.5hp at least, right?)

'sid
 

bob58o

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the yellow spring is not made for a series 30 TC.. period.

You don't like the original spring? well tough luck!
215699A is the only spring there is (it's green on comets and red on clones)

Does BMI have this mislabled?
http://www.bmikarts.com/Comet-Yellow-Spring-for-30-Series-Driven_p_1028.html

Comet Yellow Spring for 30 Series Driven

Part Number:216168
Manufacturer's Part Number:Certified Parts Corp 216168A

Yellow Spring for the Comet Torque-A-Verter TAV2 - 30 Series Driven.
Stiffer than stock green spring for more low-end power
 

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