Ironton 420 CC Performance Mods

[Marcheetah]

Hello all,
Can anyone please guide me to performance parts for my new Ironton 420CC. I did favor the pred 420 but this one was almost 2 bills cheaper.

Thanks!

Marcheetah

 

[bob58o]

Governor Delete

35lb HD Valve Springs
NR
$10
Pair HD Valve Springs gx390
http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/nr-966-s.htm
pring, Valve, Heavy Duty, set (Fits 240, 270, 340, & 390s). Approx 50 lbs at 1.125 installed height, 42lbs at 1.2, with 110 lb open pressure (.375 lift)

Carb Adapter
Ebay - Vegas Carts
$40 Free Shipping
32mm billet intake adapter.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/32mm-Bille...Adapter-GX340-GX390-GX420-GX440-/181902400746
https://www.vegascarts.com/32mm-billet-intake-manifold-adapter-p/inman.htm
Our Billet Intake Manifold / Adapter allows you to easily mount a Mikuni or Keihin style carburetor to your GX340 / GX390 / GX420 / GX440.
It fits all GX-Series Big Block engines and has a 32mm Inner Diameter. CNC Machined from 6061-T651 Aluminum Stock!


28mm -32mm Slide Carb
Ebay
$35
Carburetor 32mm PWK Racing Flat Side Carb Scooter ATV Go Kart PIT DIRT BIKE
https://www.ebay.com/i/122672230436?chn=ps&dispctrl=1
PWK 32mm Carb Carburetor
Size:
Diameter(mm) 32
Outer Diameter to Air Filter: 54mm
Outer Diameter to Intake: 40mm
Color Gray Black Colorr
Package includes: 1x 32mm Carb
1 X Main Jet #120
1 X Main Jet #140
1 X Pilow Jet #40
and fuel pipes. Just same as picture shown.

Add 54mm Air Pod, Silicon Intake Hose, and throttle cable.


6 degree Offset timing key
NR
$7
6* Offset Timing Key
http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/nrkey.htm
GX270 & GX390s (will provides approx 2 to 3 more degrees than shown)
6 Degrees - Gas Applications with ARC or Stock Flywheels
8 Degrees - Alky Applications

Performance Exhaust
https://www.robertsonstorquetubes.com/predator420

Milled and Ported Head
Dynocams.com mills for cheap.




This was my list for my Powland 420cc. Not 100% sure that adapter works with the carb I listed, but you see the idea. These are the types of items I would get.

 

[Randy H]

Billet connecting rod.

 

[bob58o]

Billet connecting rod.

My engine will live and die based off the post where Geoff from Vegas Carts said these engines don't need billet rods with stock camshafts. With stock cams and counter weight not removed, I don't think these spin much more than 5k RPM. Have you lost a connecting rod on a big block?

 

[Randy H]

I have not lost a connecting rod in a big block.

But all that you have suggested, milled, ported head, racing flat slide carburetor.

Seriously, all that and no performance cam?

 

[Marcheetah]

Thanks folks!
M

 

[bob58o]

I have not lost a connecting rod in a big block.

But all that you have suggested, milled, ported head, racing flat slide carburetor.

Seriously, all that and no performance cam?

That's the thing. If I suggested a performance cam, then I would have to suggest a billet rod, then you start getting into torque vs HP cam, and counter balance thing delete.


Here is the post I stole from the buggy site...
To be fair, I called VC about this post. Didn't speak to Geoff, but the guy said billet rods are recommended. What salesman wouldn't say that tho?

"I can tell you that Ive spent nearly 20hrs a week since September, R&Ding these 420s and have gone from a stock 420 to a completely built 440 and pretty much every combination in-between. All of my testing has been done on the same white 1992 Club Car DS with 12" rims and 18" low pro tires, utilizing the same CPP clutches that I started out with. So I can assure you that my R&D was completely relevant to the subject.

Furthermore, I have had direct contact with Charles Mosley (minidragbike), Jeremy Parsons (Parsons Racing Engines), Russell @ NR-Racing, Shane @ Affordable Go Karts, and Tim Iskenderian (Small Engine Cams). These people are some of, in not THE, TOP Clone Engine builders in the country. Each and every one of them has led me in the right direction and they have all contributed to my 440 program in one way or another.

My goal was to develop an engine specific to Golf Carts, that was extremely affordable, yet also yielded massive power gains and maintained reliability and low end torque. The goal was to develop this platform and make it available for HALF the cost of a typical v-twin big block swap.

As of right now, I have 440 engines 2 weeks away, and performance parts 2 months away. I have used Parsons and Isky parts exclusively in the meantime to test the 420 & 440 CLONE engines that I have in house. These are the FACTS:

-Big Engines Like Big Cams , The bigger the cam I put in them, the more OVERALL HP and Torque they gained. I tested 7 cams, starting with a 220 Duration/.280 Lift cam. I ended up with a 260 Duration / .410 Lift cam that Isky ground custom for me. Every time that I went up to a larger cam, I gained more power throughout the ENTIRE rpm range. Iam positive that I could go even larger, however, I feel that the 260/410 cam is a great all-around setup and will serve as a dual-purpose cam so even the kart and lawnmower guys can use it. Eventually I will test some .500 lift cams, the real issue I ran into was clearance with the crank. This cam is .020" away from hitting as it is.

-7000rpm is the limit for the big blocks when it comes to reliability(they dont like to rev), thats the reason I stuck with stock size valves. The stock 35/31mm valves wont make power past 6500rpm anyway, the key to keeping these engines alive is keeping the RPMs down. Keep it at 7k or under and you will not have a reliability issue.

-Stock Clutches are good for stock engines, if you want to make power and use it, you will need to upgrade the clutch first. Stick with CPPs Clutch, its rated to 30hp. Im probably making 32-33 and its holding up just fine. You dont see V-Twin swaps with stock clutches very often! More Power = More Supporting Mods...Bottom Line

-A Built Clone with a Billet Rod, Hard-Face-Welded Camshaft, Stainless Valves, Chrome Silicon Springs, Aluminum or Titanium Retainers. Chromoly Pushrods, and Shaft Rockers, is going to be MUCH stronger and more reliable than stock. The stock rod flexes and deforms under high power, it also is a **** poor design for high speed lubrication and will gall the crank. I ran a stock rod and valves for ALONG time and ALOT of abuse. I didnt have 1 problem until the day I put a cam in it. Even the small cam was such a drastic power increase, the stock rod and valves ate the sheets within 4 hours. Stock valves are junk and cannot withstand the higher valvespring pressures of dual springs, so bottom line is, they dont call it a "Built" engine for their health. Its "Built" so it can RELIABLY take the abuse associated with a high horsepower application. Both ARC and Parsons rods have taken tons of abuse on the go kart tracks which are significantly harder on any engine than a Golf Cart is. 6500+ rpm for 30 mins at a time.

-Dyno numbers mean nothing! I have a drag mustang that makes over 1200HP but it only makes 700rwhp on a chassis dyno. There are too many variables to consider with dynos, so its really a waste of time trying to compare them in any way, especially when considering two different setups. I tune clone'd golf carts based on feel, its not like we are drag racing and trying to get every last .01 of a second. All we care about is that the cart starts easily, idles smoothly, and pulls smoothly through the whole rpm band without issue, and of course...it must pull really hard, and do big wheelies

I would continue but Im very hungry at the moment and dinner is ready. I hope to post some good videos this weekend but I just havent had time lately. Im anxious to get the built engine'd cart on youtube. Its way past the point of being safe and is really cool seeing as how you can get soo much power into a stock height cart, no lift kit needed(HUGE advantage of clones over v-twins.)."

With regards to bang for buck, a 420 clone with the following mods will make 20-22hp and doesnt need a billet rod:

-Timing Key
-Ported & Milled Head
-28-32mm ATV/Motocycle Carb
-Header & Free Flowing Exhaust
-HD ValveSprings

Can be done for $400 including the engine.

-Geoff

-Geoff Warner
702-335-4002

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

Who/what are these "CPP Clutches"?

 

[Marcheetah]

Final question and thank you all for helping me.
Should I go on and tear into this clone or go and wait on a Pred 420 to go on sale?

 

[bob58o]

420 Chinese Cloned Cubic Centimeters are 420 Chinese Cloned Cubic Centimeters.
Any 420CCCC should do. I got my Powerland 420 for $170 shipped.

 

[bob58o]

Who/what are these "CPP Clutches"?

Aren't you the golf cart guy?
Carts Parts Plus.


From a thread where a newb ask what are CPP clutch adapters....
http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/clone-engine-swaps/41308-cpp-clutch-addapter.html

Sorry Flash, We seem to forget that not everyone knows CPP or, Cart Parts Plus.
Here's a link to the adapter and (CPP's ) site

http://www.cartpartsplus.com/

 

[Randy H]

Thanks for the response Bob.

Ever since I blew up one of the first predator 212's, with my redneck mods I've just had a mindset that the rod is the weakest link. By the way when it went it scared the hen out of me.

Or course they are different engines. On my 420 I got the torque cam, and went with a billet rod also. Break in with governor and stock rod. I did not push the stock rod at all.

So in the words of Aurther Fonzarelli (Fonzi), I was wrrr, wrro, wrong.

 

[bob58o]

Thanks for the response Bob.

So in the words of Aurther Fonzarelli (Fonzi), I was wrrr, wrro, wrong.

Not at all. There is a good chance that a stock rod will blow. But I'm a betting man. And some times all it takes it one post I find when searching the whole internet which confirms what I want to hear to convince me. I haven't finished modifying mine yet.

I share the post so I can claim, "The internet said it was true!" My actual experience is very limited, even with MY OWN 420cc.

 

[OwenMM]

Stock rod might survive if you increase the clearance, I got a genuine honda one honed by the machine shop to 3 thou but they accidently did it backwards (oil dipper facing wrong way...) so I never got around to trying it, I gave up and put an ARC rod in, no issues since. I got lucky and felt the journal nip on the crank each time so never had a blow up.

 

[bob58o]

so I never got around to trying it, I gave up and put an ARC rod in, no issues since. I got lucky and felt the journal nip on the crank each time so never had a blow up.

??? I don't understand.

 

[OwenMM]

I had problems galling stock conrods on the crankshaft. I would get a few laps in the kart pushing the revs to about 6200 and on the 3rd or 4th you could feel the engine start to lose power so I shut down and no serious damage was done. I tried different oils, same result. I think with increased clearance it would survive in a mild application, ie under 6000 rpm. The rod I had machined to test was honed to 3 thou but they stuffed up and put the cap on backwards, so I threw the towel in and just put a billet ARC rod in. That was with a stock camshaft, but quite a few other tricks so it revved out pretty well.