How much turbo boost in a stock Camry?

[jr dragster T]

So is this a 5S-FE or what? You would be better off doing a RWD V8 swap than trying to turbo an economy engine, my 92 even has a drive shaft tunnel already there for the AWD model

I tried to tell Oscar that counless times. Hes 13 and so egaer just to slap a turbo on something. Theres more to it then he thinks.

 

[frederic]

So is this a 5S-FE or what? You would be better off doing a RWD V8 swap than trying to turbo an economy engine, my 92 even has a drive shaft tunnel already there for the AWD model

Converting a FWD car to a RWD is a lot of work. I know, because I and two friends did this to a '92 Taurus and created one heck of a road-racing machine (for street purposes of course). Twin turbo V8, fabricated suspension, rear mounted transaxle so the car was reasonably balanced front to rear. It went like stink and handled very, very well by the time we were done tuning and adjusting everything.

And, it's a Taurus. No one would give it a second look because of what it is. And that makes it even more fun.

 

[Kenny_McCormic]

If its a 5S-Fe you can turbo it using a lot of stock Toyota parts from a turbo 3S-FE, the 5S is just a stroked 3S. But boosting a high millage economy motor still makes no sense.

 

[Rotore]

no it doesnt

 

[oscaryu1]

Additional fuel? Doubt it's necessary, but if I need to, swap in a bigger fuel rail (somehow) and 3SGTE injectors.

Wastegates?

Blow-off valve? Noob question: What's the difference between a BOV and Wategate o-o

Intercooling? Maybe, I'm removing the condenser (dad already took the AC compressor off to get better mileage, so I'm just removing the rest.)

Does the vehicle have to pass state emissions? Sniffing? Dyno? Visual? If it does, I'll just install a nice large Flowmonster.

What are you going to do about traction? Stock tires should be fine. I'd be more worried about the 265,000 22 year old transmission.

What is the RPM range you will be operating your engine in most of the time, under boost? Erm... low end mainly. They say larger exhaust piping makes the Camry rev much more freely in the higher RPMs...

Where will idle be? Stock idle =O?

What RPM would you desire and in turn expect boost to appear?

If you have boost very quickly, what will you do about vaccum? Higher pressure check valves or an external vaccum pump? I isa nub. Me no understand ><

How will you handle turbo manifold and turbocharger radiated heat? Intercooler? Turbo will be cooled by inter... going between the oil filter and the return hose (get a oil filter relocation kit).

A lot of people cobble stuff together with okay results. I've done this many times myself as experiments, to learn something, or prove a point.

However, if you want optimal results there's quite a bit of mathematics involved and would then recommend you purchase new or used the book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell to start.

Like with everything else, it's all about weighing cost, abilities, part choices, goals, and so on.

There is a huge difference between "it works" and "it's wicked".

Haha, unlike other kids, I prefer getting a POS rusted car and beating them in their Mustangs and G36 Coupes (popular here).

Hopefully ><

As you can tell, I know virtually nothing about turbos. Good idea about how they work (I have a turbo book)... learned a good amount of... that little chamber above the fins which take in that air, bearing system, cutouts...

But again, nothing. Manifold pressure?

 

[oscaryu1]

So is this a 5S-FE or what? You would be better off doing a RWD V8 swap than trying to turbo an economy engine, my 92 even has a drive shaft tunnel already there for the AWD model

No 3SFE. 3SFE is for the 87' - 92' camrys. Our 2001 Camry has a 5SFE.

I tried to tell Oscar that counless times. Hes 13 and so egaer just to slap a turbo on something. Theres more to it then he thinks.

Where's the MSN smilie?

TBH Tyler, I learn from my mistakes. I can took it up, drive it 5 feet, and have the whole exhaust manifold fall off. I wouldn't be suprised, knowing me.

If its a 5S-Fe you can turbo it using a lot of stock Toyota parts from a turbo 3S-FE, the 5S is just a stroked 3S. But boosting a high millage economy motor still makes no sense.

They say the 5SFE can take a tad of boost, but alot of boosted Camry's never lasted. Alot of blown pistons...

5SFE = 2.2L, and 3SFE = 2.0L. Heck, they say it might be possible to even swap heads on them (Whenever I get the 01' Camry and I have some time, I'll try it )

Honestly, I just want it mainly for the little boost in power and speed, and the education in doing so.

The "trash"ed motor that we took now, I plan on building that up. 3SGTE crank, Eagle H Beam rods, ceramic bearings (iffy), Wiseco forged pistons and rings, deck the block a bit, mill down the head (get it re-done, or heck a 5SFE head if it'll fit), a underdrive crank pully (weighted), strip the interior... 3SGTE MAF, get the ECU flashed or a Greddy E Management system...

Blah. Again... most of my projects never turn out like I say they do.

But I love this car xD, and everything still works, and the frame is in good condition (just two little rust spots on the top by the roof).

 

[Rotore]

are you going for mid range power or power across the whole rpm range?

and if your going for low boost and your engine has alot of miles dude consider rebuilding the engine or pulling one out of the junkyard with lower miles and make sure the tune is perfect.

 

[EagleTalons]

Get a diesel.

 

[frederic]

They say the 5SFE can take a tad of boost, but alot of boosted Camry's never lasted. Alot of blown pistons...

This is because Toyota has mastered the art of thin-top, thin-skirt, lightweight hypertueric piston manufacturing as well as generally deploying a high (9.8:1 to 10.5:1 compression ratio).

Their head bolts also leave a lot to be desired as does the chamber shapes and overall flow under boosted conditions. Naturally aspirated it's fantastic and why these engines are reliable and economical to run over other brands.

The problem I run into a lot with homebrew forced induction and the inevitable "exspurt" tuners who try to adjust things is they never seem to grasp the concept of rich, stioch, and lean.

I could write a 20-page "rant" on ALL of the forced induction cars (that weren't mine) that I've been asked to tune - didn't matter what it is or what was spent on parts... they were all tuned way to lean even if the owner made massive adjustments.

Anyway, I'll save that rant for another day.

 

[BradenM]

Just put 50psi boost on this mother trust me I'm a bicycle mechanic...LOL

 

[frederic]

Additional fuel? Doubt it's necessary, but if I need to, swap in a bigger fuel rail (somehow) and 3SGTE injectors.

It's absolutely necessary. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi. If you add 8psi of boost , that's 45% more PSI and therefore you need 45% more fuel at a minimum. The stock calibration of your car can probably compensate for about 2psi of additional boost tops. To cover the remaining 6psi you need to do something.

Blow-off valve? Noob question: What's the difference between a BOV and Wategate o-o

A blow-off valve drains the intake manifold of air pressure when you open it. This allows a quick dump of the accumulated boost which is necessary when you snap the throttle plates closed after wide open throttle.

A wastegate is a valve that bypasses the exhaust side of the turbo, so the exhaust doesn't spin the turbo very much. This is typically what OEM cars have, often integrated into the exhaust-side turbine housing.

Intercooling? Maybe, I'm removing the condenser (dad already took the AC compressor off to get better mileage, so I'm just removing the rest.)

An intercooler isn't always necessary, and in some situations makes things worse.

Under high boost situations it's not uncommon to have intake charge temperatures above 300 degrees. When you compress air, it gets hot. Turbochargers, compress air.

Does the vehicle have to pass state emissions? Sniffing? Dyno? Visual? If it does, I'll just install a nice large Flowmonster.

A flowmaster muffler just reduces the exhaust noise. An emissions test is either a static test where they test the vehicle at idle, monitoring the exhaust fumes looking for hydrocarbons and other pollutants. This is how they determine if your catalytic converter is any good. A Dyno test is the same thing except instead of testing the vehicle at idle, they test it on a set of rollers to simulate you driving the vehicle around town. Many states do this now because guys like me and tune a vehicle to pass an idle test no matter what we've shoved under the hood.

A visual test is the most difficult test to pass, because the inspector has a factory diagram of what your vehicle should look like under the hood, and if you add turbos, larger intake ductwork, and intercooler, they'll be spotted and you'll fail state inspection.

What are you going to do about traction? Stock tires should be fine. I'd be more worried about the 265,000 22 year old transmission.

Fair enough.

What is the RPM range you will be operating your engine in most of the time, under boost? Erm... low end mainly. They say larger exhaust piping makes the Camry rev much more freely in the higher RPMs...

That would be true with any engine. Larger exhaust tubing with less bends allows for better breathing at higher RPMs.

I asked your target RPM range for boost because if you want the boost off idle and available nearly immediately, you'd size your turbochargers differently than if you want it to perform "fairly stock" until say 3500-4000 then have the boost kick to and past redline.

These are the kind of decisions you need to make up front before ordering parts, unless of course you're just cobbling "stuff" together to see what happens. That's fine to, just have lower expectations than if you spent a week doing advanced mathematics ;-)

If you have boost very quickly, what will you do about vaccum? Higher pressure check valves or an external vaccum pump? I isa nub. Me no understand ><

Higher pressure check valves are fine for a car that will hit idle somewhat often, or at least often enough to draw a strong vaccum in a possibly larger vaccum tank. Another option, and the route I typically go, is I buy a used vaccum pump from a diesel engine, graft on a pulley that matches whatever I have, weld up some bracketry and stick it on. Then no matter what the boost level or when in the RPM band it appears, you have vaccum for the brakes as well as the defrost, vent and floor "doors" that redirect heater/AC flow in the cockpit.

How will you handle turbo manifold and turbocharger radiated heat? Intercooler? Turbo will be cooled by inter... going between the oil filter and the return hose (get a oil filter relocation kit).

That's oil cooling and it's important also. I was asking about radiated heat from the exhaust manifolds and exhaust-side of the turbo housing. With a well-tuned system and either a big engine or lots of RPMs, it's not that difficult to have the exhaust manifold and turbo housing "glow" in total darkness. That's how hot the steel can get. Here are the exhaust gas temps on my very tired, 500K mile F350 crewcab (351 V8, naturally aspirated):

• Idle is about 800-850 degrees F
• 40 MPH in 5th is about 1100 degrees F
• 75 MPH in 5th is about 1300 degrees F
• WOT in 5th gear will cause EGT to climb to just under 1400 degrees F
• WOT in 4th gear where the engine can work hard I get almost 1475 degrees F.

Haha, unlike other kids, I prefer getting a POS rusted car and beating them in their Mustangs and G36 Coupes (popular here).

You are building a "sleeper". That happens to be my favorite kind of car, and why I generally overpower pickups for "street play" as well as got involved in the twin-turbo RWD Taurus project with two other guys.

As you can tell, I know virtually nothing about turbos. Good idea about how they work (I have a turbo book)... learned a good amount of... that little chamber above the fins which take in that air, bearing system, cutouts...

Happy to help you (and everyone else for that matter) if you wish. My kart-building experience is very limited but once we step out of "little parts" and get into "big parts" I'm more in my element.

The biggest, baddest engine I ever built (with a friend who's car it was for) was a 620-ish CID, twin-turbo beast that had an 8000 RPM redline.

It ran on pump gas (94 octane) and produced 1700-ish HP at the flywheel. The engine is currently on a stand as the car it was in for several years twisted like a pretzel from the torque.

And it idles almost like a factory car, at least well enough that one can idle at a stop light, not overheat, and not everyone will stare at you.

But again, nothing. Manifold pressure?

Manifold pressure is one thing to figure out, but more importantly, cylinder pressure. 50psi of intake pressure has never blasted a cylinder head off the block. What does blow the head off the block is the post-ignition pressure with that much boost.

And why, getting in that range with a gasoline engine is darn near impossible - gasoline certainly is very convenient, but it's an incredibly lousy fuel.

 

[oscaryu1]

Hehe, well I guess I could find some alcohol, but finding a rail is gonna be hard enuogh.

45% more fuel? Oh dear. I think you're my new idol

1700HP?! 94 octane?

You have done thy impossible!

So Fred, any tips on what I'm doing >< ?

Obviously I have an idea about what I'm gonna need to BUY (a...heh...), but generally I dunno what they even do (that much).

I'm going to stick with the cheaper $110 turbo (I don't need that much boost), and obviously need both a BOV (I know whatcha mean about that, otherwise the air would slow down the turbo abruptly putting alot of stress on the bearings) and wastegate to limit the amount of PSI the turbo can produce.

Sleeper... yay! My van's actually next. 2.4L and it can only make 138HP

So, I have pretty much no choice but to go with the 3SGTE headers and the $110 turbo, as with a little "Bypass" oiling system, and I think I'll let go the idea of an intercooler for now - 5psi might be alot for a Camry, but I don't think it'll get that hot (Despite knowing how hot a turbo can get under stress).

So yeah... um... injectors and stuffles, I have honestly no idea.

The 265,000 engine, when I took the plugs out, two were VERY white (lean), and two were very black and oily.

Obviously, not a great engine. I have no idea about the 200,000 "new" one. The plug boot itself was soaked (literally) in oil. Didn't have my plug wrenches to take a look though.

 

[frederic]

45% more fuel? Oh dear. I think you're my new idol

That's the name of the game. If you add more oxygen through a turbocharger, supercharger, or nitrious you are obliged to add more fuel. That's what you want, more fuel.

1700HP?! 94 octane?
You have done thy impossible!

With all out race parts it's not difficult to get 1.5-2 HP per cid, especially at the RPMs we're talking here. Let's say that engine was 600cid. 2HP per cid is 1200HP. Boost for the missing 500HP. It's not as radical as you think because that 500 HP is a small percentage (a little more than a 1/3) of the overall HP, but it did cost my friend and arm and a leg (maybe both legs).

I'm going to stick with the cheaper $110 turbo (I don't need that much boost), and obviously need both a BOV (I know whatcha mean about that, otherwise the air would slow down the turbo abruptly putting alot of stress on the bearings) and wastegate to limit the amount of PSI the turbo can produce.

If the boost level is sane you can skip the BOV and just use a wastegate. I asked you a slew of questions to see if you had thought about all these different things, not necessarily suggesting that you need them. The OEM's often skip the BOV entirely and many turbocharged imports come from the factory with the boost level set to do 6psi, maybe 8psi.

5psi might be alot for a Camry, but I don't think it'll get that hot (Despite knowing how hot a turbo can get under stress).

I did a quick calc and your intake charge temp at 5psi with the ambient air being 75 degrees will probably break 225 degrees. An intercooler may help this, but like I said can introduce other problems.

Since this is an EFI engine, you can machine an injector bung and have it tig-welded to the aluminum intake and feed that injector isopropol if you're really worried. Save that for later and see what happens first.

The 265,000 engine, when I took the plugs out, two were VERY white (lean), and two were very black and oily.

Um, that's not good :-(

Obviously, not a great engine. I have no idea about the 200,000 "new" one. The plug boot itself was soaked (literally) in oil. Didn't have my plug wrenches to take a look though.

It sounds to me that this engine is in need of at least a "monkey" rebuild - new gaskets, honing of cyl walls, new rings.

 

[oscaryu1]

Oh darncakes. We already swapped the transmission on...

They said it ran before they pulled it out. Hopefully we can clean it out nicely ><

Pour a bit of Seafoam down the cylinder...

 

[jr dragster T]

Its not that hard to get 1700 HP in a BBC on gas at the crank Oscar. Rear wheels would be a different story.

 

[frederic]

Its not that hard to get 1700 HP in a BBC on gas at the crank Oscar. Rear wheels would be a different story.

(cough) LENCO (cough)

 

[jr dragster T]

Lol any racing transmision takes up some HP. This weekend I saw 3100 HP Pro-Mods and one of they guys had a Lenco tranny. If you can shift a lenco 0-170 MPH in 4.70 seconds you know your good at shifting. These guys do 660' (1/8 mile) burnouts at 9000 RPM. Just screaming the blower.

 

[frederic]

Yep.

Funny cars and top fuel rails do numbers even better than that. Serious punishment for serious parts.

We got out of it years ago because we couldn't win enough to keep a sponsor. And without sponsorship, your car ends up being 5000 welding beads on everything. Heads, blocks, rods, tinware, etc. Not a safe way to race.

For a while both top fuel types experimented with direct drive. We struggled with this ourselves. I *think* they may have gone back to shifting. It's been a very long time for me.