good source for a arm bushings/pivot rods

[zogthegreat]

Hi everyone!

New member here with a question. I'm modifying a Razor Dirt Quad into a bastich go kart. Yes, I know that there are better frames to work with, but my daughter really likes the quad. Plus, it only cost $20.00, so....

It already has a rear swing arm that I'm going to "improve". I want to build A arms for the front end, (I'll be using 3/4" steel tubing for this), and I'm looking for a source for bushings and pivot rods.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

zog

 

[Ebrownie]

Could we see some pictures of what you have? Depends on what you are looking for, but I would imagine you could use a bolt for a pivot rod and look at some oilite (oil infused brass, look them up in eBay.) bushings.

 

[zogthegreat]

Hi Ebrownie!

Thanks for the response. And the advice! Here are some pic's of what I'm working with:

Essentially, I want to do what this guy did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf6XPSit0rQ&feature=youtu.be

Only, instead of lowering it, I want to raise it up some so that it really can off road a bit. I'm going electric, (48v with indsutrial permanent magnet motor, 12/74 on the gears), so it will be tourquey as all Hades!

I was hoping to find nylon bushings instead of brass, (cheaper), but if oilite is all that there is, I'll go with those.

Thanks again!

 

[Ebrownie]

Yep, no problem. Nylon may be cheaper for bushings, but it will wear much faster. As far as your suspension goes, build some solid shock towers. Look at the pics on this post:
http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showpost.php?p=459702&postcount=50

It is from madmanandrew's build on this forum. Shows the shock towers, a-arms, and the shock adjustability. Something like this would be good.

 

[zogthegreat]

OK, after thinking about it, I decided that there is no point in asking advice from someone who knows what they are talking about and then ignoring the advice! So I'm going with the oilite bushings

I did check eBay, but I was at Lowes last night and I saw that they have oilite bushings there, so I'll grab some today, (didn't have my tube to make sure of the fit).

Since I want to raise the quad, is there any "golden rule" on how long to make the A arms? I was going to measure the current distance between the spindle and the frame and add about 2" for the rise, (i.e. I'm going to eyeball it and go from there! )

As far as your suspension goes, build some solid shock towers. Look at the pics on this post:
http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showpost.php?p=459702&postcount=50

Thanks for the link. Yeah, I was going to do the shock towers with some 1'8" plate steel, the frame really can't handle more than that, (I think the original metal is measured in gauge, not inches!), although, given that I'm rebuilding more than half of the frame with the modifications that I'm making to the rear swing arm.....

 

[Ebrownie]

I'm not sure about the length for your a-arms, but you shouldn't have a problem with adding 2 or so inches. Just make sure everything is the same on both sides. Good luck! If you have any other questions later, ask away!

 

[zogthegreat]

Thanks again for your help, Ebrownie.

I know that this forum is for go karts, but I might start a build thread in the "Electric Projects" forum.

 

[itsid]

make sure to think about your steering geometry before you cut anything..

you cannot copy the current setup if you add suspension (that's what the a-arms are for, right?)

and while a std pitman tierod setup will change your toe based on current compression of the shock..
it'd at least allow the shock to compress.. that single tierod between both wheels will lock up at one point, and in all other scenarios would resuld in very sloppy steering.

So yeah.. think about your steering a bit to give your daughter the best possible experience (and best possible vehicle control )

And yes... nylon wears quick... oilite does too (not as quick though) make sure to keep them well maintained.

'sid

 

[zogthegreat]

make sure to think about your steering geometry before you cut anything..

you cannot copy the current setup if you add suspension (that's what the a-arms are for, right?)

and while a std pitman tierod setup will change your toe based on current compression of the shock..
it'd at least allow the shock to compress.. that single tierod between both wheels will lock up at one point, and in all other scenarios would resuld in very sloppy steering.

So yeah.. think about your steering a bit to give your daughter the best possible experience (and best possible vehicle control )

And yes... nylon wears quick... oilite does too (not as quick though) make sure to keep them well maintained.

'sid

Do you have any suggestions on how I should set it up?

 

[itsid]

hmm, depends...

I'd say take a setup similiar to the one in the video (std two tierod pitman arm);
it works well enough for most offroad karts;
and although your track is much narrower than for most of them, if you do not go crazy with suspension travel it'll work nearly as good.

talking about suspension travel..., RAISING the quad might not be a good idea at all ..
since you not only increase the clearance, but you raise the center of gravity..
on a rather narrow four wheeler, that means it tends to tip over in corners especially when not on level ground.
perfectly okay to raise a bike.. a four wheeler might see several adverse effects
if you do not compensate with trackwidth.

And frankly.. in the end you'll only have a "one size bigger" ATV which is likely not what you wanted.

So yeah, IDK really.. but most important is that your daughter can ride it safely, happily and conveniently (I'd say in this order ) And while offroading capabilities are nice, do not force them on an ATV that's NOT intended for off road use, especially not when your kids safety is at stake for doing so.

Just my humble opinion mind you, but "not" raising the ATV and just adding front suspension is likely the safer thing to do, it also keeps the ATV away from terrain it's clearly not safe to use in ... just sayin'

'sid

 

[zogthegreat]

Thanks itsid,

I'll keep it at the same height then.

Although, now I've decided to build it so that I can ride it also, it's probably going to have a lot more torque than I originally planned!

I'll probably do a kart build either this summer or next autumn. I like the idea of having a ride for the RV parks that I live in now, but I'm not "old enough" for a golf cart. I've already figured out a mount so that I can carry the quad, (stripped down), on the trailer hitch on the back of my rig, (I live full time in a 36' motor coach and travel back and forth between Montreal, QC and Florida every 6 months), so a kart with the motor and batteries stripped off, (I'm big on electric, less regulations to deal with crossing the borders), shouldn't be to heavy for the tounge weight of my hitch.

 

[zogthegreat]

...
talking about suspension travel..., RAISING the quad might not be a good idea at all ..
since you not only increase the clearance, but you raise the center of gravity..
on a rather narrow four wheeler, that means it tends to tip over in corners especially when not on level ground.
perfectly okay to raise a bike.. a four wheeler might see several adverse effects
if you do not compensate with trackwidth.

I've been thinking about this today. Since I'm rebuilding the rear swing arm already, what if I replaced the stock Razor axle with a go kart axle? Something like this:

(Sorry about the crappy pic, it's late).

This would give me a wider and more stable platform. I'm less concerned about "off-roading" then me or one of my kids rolling it on pavement.

 

[itsid]

again.. both has pros and cons I'm afraid.

Yes, a wider trackwidth reduces the chance of having it tip over in uneven terrain
(serpentining up a hill )
it also helps in corners (although leaning will still be required)
The downside is.. live axles (especially with wide wheels) are notorious for understeering.
they simply only really like to go straight.
So that'd affect the steering again.

Frankly, I cannot tell you what to do really, that's mainly a question of your daughters skills and talent.
(How good of a rider is she today, and how fast can she adapt to unknown situations off road?)
Something I wouldn't dare to judge... and forgive me... wouldn't believe in any parental judgement (own kids are always the smartest, brightest, quickest and most talented.. they have to be!)

So yeah, tough to give good advice

A good rule of thumb would be...
if you think it'd be fun for you, it's likely a tad too dangerous for a kid.
If the kid's mom is fine with the kid riding it w/o supervision in the backyard..
step up and add some more fun
Sweet spot would be a slightly concerned look in mom's face and a slightly bored one in dad's
(or the other way around.. I know.. but I've seen that!)

Whatever you do, do not go crazy on anything, raise if you like (but gently) an inch, maybe two should do in most cases.. keep in mind this atv is structurally NOT made for off road.. cheapest possible frame with cheapest possible tubing... a heavy bump and it might twist.

If you think widening it to compensate for raised center of gravity.. do so, but again gently..
four inches maybe just enough to compensate for the added height to keep the steering as close to what it is now as possible.

What you're messing with is a sophisticated toy rather than a sportsequipment, treat it that way. it's neither meant to go fast nor to go rough... it's a pavement (maybe lawn) walking speed 'toy'
Do not expect you could convert it to something able to keep up with a Honda or Yamaha ATV of comparable size (after you raising and widening it), the difference in price is justified I'm afraid

So yeah, be gentle, think twice and when in doubt do what's safer for your kids, not what's more fun for you; and when they're grown out of it rather buy the next bigger one from CL.

'sid

again: just MHO

 

[zogthegreat]

So, I completed "phase 1" of my project:

I call it "The Beast", here's the specs:

Heavily modified Razor Dirt Quad frame - I rebuilt the entire rear swing arm to handle the motor
Imperial Electric P66LR006 36v motor @ 48v and approx 2800 rpm
Kelly KDZ48200 motor controller
4 x 12v 18ah SLA's

And no, my daughter is not allowed near it, much less on it!

I call it "The Beast", because of the motor, (although based on the way it handles, I should call it "The Fat Pig"!). The center over gravity is to high, plus some of the motor hags over on one side, which makes it hard to control in turns, (counter balancing your body is a must).

However, it accelerates like a dream!

For "phase 2" I want to build the front suspension I was talking about, but I want to lower and widen the front end to improve handling. I'm also planing on using go kart spindles for the front end, as the original Razor ones are small and worn out.

For the rear end, well......

I'm actually thinking of going with a single rear tire, although I will probably start with the front end, see how it handles and then think about rear end mods. I would have some concerns as the reverse trikes that I have seen have a system that pivots your front wheels and axles that I wouldn't have the ability to replicate.

Since I'm planning to redo the rear swing arm for a wider axle anyway, I might knock out a test rear end that I could mod later to carry a wider two wheel setup if I'm not happy with a single tire.

I'm not sure what to do about the motor, I'm planning to use the current motor in a go kart build that I'm planning, so I will have to see what my options are. I have a 36v 1000w Unite that I've been planning to use to experiment with water cooling DC motor, (just because water and high amps are deadly doesn't mean it can't be done! ) I have a lot of experience with PC water cooling and I can fit 1/4" copper tubing in between the magnets, (with some flattening). Should be interesting, at worst, I have an excuse to buy a better motor!

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

Does the rear axle spin in bushings?

 

[zogthegreat]

Does the rear axle spin in bushings?

Yes, however......

They are in fact plastic bushing, not bearings.

What I'm thinking for the swing arm rebuild is to get a proper go kart axle and some drop bearings to mount it with. I will have to get a new spindle for the rear tire, as well as sprocket and brake disc mounts.

However, I think "upgrading" is the best way to go, as the original Razor parts aren't in anyway designed for this type of torque and power!

 

[zogthegreat]

Hmm, I was staring at my quad and I think that I'll widen the front end without adding a suspension. I can always build a suspension later, I want see how it handles with a wider/lower stance first and go from there.

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

Just for reference, your original question led me to this lovely site:

https://www.thebigbearingstore.com/

 

[zogthegreat]

Just for reference, your original question led me to this lovely site:

https://www.thebigbearingstore.com/

Bookmarked! Thanks!

 

[cornerman11]

You can also use this one as a reference, especially on their mechanical components section: http://www.powerjackmotion.com/product-category/metal-maching-service/

The site doesn't have pictures of the products, only written text of what they offer, but I think I saw the ones you're looking for are included on the abovesaid section.

Hope this helps!