go kart belt adjustment for torque converter?

[danssoslow]

I had a similar oroblem running a TC with a jackshaft on my older kart. It turned out the nuts that held the engine to the jackshaft loosened up and the bolts were able to wear the mounting holes in the jackshaft plate enough that the engine walked a little bit; causing an increase in distance between the driver pulley and the driven pully.

It's not a surprise to see the engine bolts loosen up; which may explain how you have the same problem on two carts. I'd definitely make sure you can return the engine to the proper driver/driven distance. It might also be worth your time to use a straight edge and check that the inboard portions of both pulleys are aligned and parallel. The guy that serviced the units may have left a washer out when reinstalling the units. Any misalignment could cause the belt to grab.

One more thing. I'd try to sand that rust down if you could. There isn't much slack at all in those belts while at idle. It'll just sit there in place and barely rub on the driver as it's spinning. Like grip tape on a skateboard, that rust could cause the driver to grab that belt.

 

[bbullsj]

itsid, I have been over this many times in this thread that nothing has changed with the kart except for the clutch (the one pictured) locked up and so the rear wheels were fully engaged at all times. I took only the clutch off and had it looked over and cleaned and now it is doing the same thing. The belt is in great condition and I have confirmed that the belt is the correct size. If I move the motor at all, it just loosens up the chain on the right side of the kart so that really isn't going to work. From what I heard after I had the clutch gone through. the guy is not very reliable at fixing things and just does it as a size hobby. I believe that is still my problem since that is the only thing that has changed since they ran fine, clutch locked up, and I put it back on.

 

[bbullsj]

danssoslow, where should I clean the rust off from?

 

[danssoslow]

On all the inner surfaces the belt rides on.

Let's take a step back. When you recall the original problem, that the clutch locked up, what exactly do you mean by that?
Symptomatically, you can say that the problem still exists, and that cleaning it did not solve the actual problem.
If by locked up you mean that the Movable Face on the Drive Clutch was stuck in the position where it is closest to the engine, then this could be a seperate issue.

If it isn't alot of trouble, pull the engine up off that jackshaft and check the mounting holes on the jackshaft's plate. I, too believe that the driver to driven distance is the cause of your current problem. Your current length is a known value that is not the same as the TC manufacturer suggests it should be; and I assure you the kart manufacturer adhered to that number (think about the reponsibility of warranty issues if the kart manufacturer did not adhere to that distance).
It worked fine before the lock-up; but the measure may have been on the money then; and changed as the symptom revealed itself. We can't assume that the distance has always been the same.

I heard a famous mechanic tell a joke once: The Farmer tells the Veterinarian, "the horse was pulling the load fine up until it died!"

In troubleshooting, you have symptoms and roots. Solving only the symptoms never fixes the problem. We must find the root of the problem to find out how the symptom occured. Symptoms are merely Nature's way of letting us know where to start.
If a drunk driver after a crash asks you why his car no longer runs; do you tell him it's because he hit a telephone pole, or because he was driving drunk?

This is the type of mindset you'll need to have in order to get this figured out. You can't focus on any one thing and work to make that one thing change, without first stepping back to a bigger picture and search other things that might be involved. It may be a long and arduous process; but it has to be done. Otherwise, even if you were to get your TC working again, the problem will eventually return. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe next season; but inevitably, it will return.


Have you started the engine, without the belt on, and reved the engine to check the driven clutch for smooth operation? As you slowly ease into the throttle, that Movable Face should smoothly start to pull in toward the engine; let off the throttle, ad it slides back out. Hold an rpm, and it stays in place. It shouldn't have any jerky movement to it, nice and smooth.

 

[landuse]

On all the inner surfaces the belt rides on.

Let's take a step back. When you recall the original problem, that the clutch locked up, what exactly do you mean by that?
Symptomatically, you can say that the problem still exists, and that cleaning it did not solve the actual problem.
If by locked up you mean that the Movable Face on the Drive Clutch was stuck in the position where it is closest to the engine, then this could be a seperate issue.

If it isn't alot of trouble, pull the engine up off that jackshaft and check the mounting holes on the jackshaft's plate. I, too believe that the driver to driven distance is the cause of your current problem. Your current length is a known value that is not the same as the TC manufacturer suggests it should be; and I assure you the kart manufacturer adhered to that number (think about the reponsibility of warranty issues if the kart manufacturer did not adhere to that distance).
It worked fine before the lock-up; but the measure may have been on the money then; and changed as the symptom revealed itself. We can't assume that the distance has always been the same.

I heard a famous mechanic tell a joke once: The Farmer tells the Veterinarian, "the horse was pulling the load fine up until it died!"

In troubleshooting, you have symptoms and roots. Solving only the symptoms never fixes the problem. We must find the root of the problem to find out how the symptom occured. Symptoms are merely Nature's way of letting us know where to start.
If a drunk driver after a crash asks you why his car no longer runs; do you tell him it's because he hit a telephone pole, or because he was driving drunk?

This is the type of mindset you'll need to have in order to get this figured out. You can't focus on any one thing and work to make that one thing change, without first stepping back to a bigger picture and search other things that might be involved. It may be a long and arduous process; but it has to be done. Otherwise, even if you were to get your TC working again, the problem will eventually return. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe next season; but inevitably, it will return.


Have you started the engine, without the belt on, and reved the engine to check the driven clutch for smooth operation? As you slowly ease into the throttle, that Movable Face should smoothly start to pull in toward the engine; let off the throttle, ad it slides back out. Hold an rpm, and it stays in place. It shouldn't have any jerky movement to it, nice and smooth.

Well said...

 

[itsid]

itsid, I have been over this many times in this thread that nothing has changed with the kart except for the clutch (the one pictured) locked up and so the rear wheels were fully engaged at all times. I took only the clutch off and had it looked over and cleaned and now it is doing the same thing. The belt is in great condition and I have confirmed that the belt is the correct size. If I move the motor at all, it just loosens up the chain on the right side of the kart so that really isn't going to work. From what I heard after I had the clutch gone through. the guy is not very reliable at fixing things and just does it as a size hobby. I believe that is still my problem since that is the only thing that has changed since they ran fine, clutch locked up, and I put it back on.

I looked at the pictures as closely as possible, If you move the engine there is no way that you loosen the chain.
If you however move the mounting plate (where the jackshaft is welded to) then of course you will loosen or tighten the chain.
So on that matter: wrong set of bolts you loosened to move the engine

Anyways, you said you made sure the center distance driver driven is exactly 7 7/8 inches, I have to trust on that.
And that indeed tells me the belt should have enough slack to move freely.

So since that looks like to be an original comet series 40 driver;
I'd like to ask you to take it off the kart and open it up to see if all the parts are where they belong.

that is on the fixed sheave (the one close to the engine) there's a tube, no moving parts.
on that is one bushing on each side of a yellow or red spring
then comes the moveable sheave,
the one inside the clutch case.
if you remove the bell, you'll see three springloaded rollers
they should be at the inner most position of their tracks and run INSIDE their tracks of course.
If that's what you have add some dry lube to the tracks, and inside the bell where the rollers touch it after cleaning everything. No need for lubrification anywhere else.
Now remount and recheck.

If all the parts listed are there clean and the rollers lubed, then the driver should be in working condition.

Now as Dan already said, check the driver without the belt for proper sheave positioning, mount the belt and recheck (lift your rear end it's hard to take a close look while actually driving )

if that turns out to work and you still have it moving on idle speeds,
then either you have the wrong spring and/or rollers (each comes optional in two different grades) thus the sheaves are too close at idle speed engaging way too soon,
or we're back to the belt length.

'sid

 

[danssoslow]

Well said...

It's a mindset; forged over many years of being an electrical maintenance tech.

bbulsj,

I mean no disrespect. Troubleshooting is simply a different way of looking at things; and it isn't something that can be considered common sense.

Perfect examples.
Go into any home that still has a fuse panel; and I will bet a dollar against a donut that there are 20 amp fuses screwed into 15 amp circuits. Fuse blows, replace it. Fuse blows again, replace it with a bigger fuse. 90% of people don't take into account that all the electronic goodies they've purchased have taxed that circuit to its maximum; and it's an understandable dysfunction to their daily lives to have to get rid of things or move them into another room/circuit.

I've been to many commercial and industrial sites where I'd have to repair a non working light or replace a device; only to have to return to do it again because the part stopped working due to a nick in a wire or exposed joint somewhere way down the line, not even remotely close to the device that stopped working.
Having to defend yourself to someone paying you to "do it right the first time" is a hard thing; but we can't break out meg'ers or spend 8 hours searching every junction box every time we come to fix a problem; we'd never get called back. Sometimes problems present other problems, that present other problems later; and so on and so forth. It's just the way it goes.

I understand how frustrating it may be trying to get your kart running smooth again. That TC I was having problems with? I finally said "screw it" and got a clutch. I gave up on that kart because I was at my wit's end and didn't have a second set of eyes or hands to help me.
I'll do my best, as everyone else here will do also, to help be that second set of eyes and hands for you; so that you won't have to give in!

 

[bbullsj]

What I mean by locked up is that the outer cone of the torque converter that moves inward to pinch the belt was moved out and locked against the belt. I had to use a screwdriver to get the belt out of it when I took it all off the first time.

I was able to put the torque converter back on and start the engine to look for proper clutch operation. It was pretty smooth except for when the outer cone went to move back outwards it did stick a little bit. It did not jerk or anything so it may have been that the engine rpm's finally came down enough for it to want to disengage. Like I said though, when I put it back together after having the clutch fixed, there was no play at all and when I tried to roll the engine over the wheels immediately wanted to spin.

I did remeasure the distance between the engine shaft and the other shaft and from center to center I measured 7 and 3/4 inches. So if anything there should be a little too much slack? I did not have time to put the belt back on and check to make sure that the 2 pullys aligned and were not off center to each other but will do that in the next day or 2. I also did not unbolt or move the engine at all to check the holes.

Keeping in mind though....................I had 2 exact karts that the clutches did the exact same thing and I had both looked over and torn apart by the same guy and both of them had the same problem. I since then traded one of them and so I am left with just the one. I find it highly unlikely that having both torque converters on both karts lock up the exact same way, have them cleaned and have the same problem afterwards have any other common issue than the converters themselves still being screwed up. It not impossible, I just think it's unlikely.

I attached a pic of the belt and converter. You can clearly see that there is a gap between the belt and the brass bushing. The bushing does move freely just fine and the belt is pushed down in the pulley as far as I could. Should the belt be able to ride on the brass bushing during idle?

 

[the..gokart..god]

yes.

 

[itsid]

it indeed should (not to say it must)

So again, you have to disassemble the driver (take pictures of every step)
I think it may have been assembled wrong.

'sid

 

[bbullsj]

I guess that's the next step. Hopefully I can get to it in the next day or 2.

 

[bbullsj]

So I cut the welds around the nut today but can't seem to get it apart. Does it press together? Do I need a press or is there another way I can do it?

 

[itsid]

Uahhh!

No need to cut the welds around the nut, the nut is welded to the bell just so that you don't loose it.

you can tack weld it back or leave it off (but don't loose it!)



the manual:
http://www.bmikarts.com/PDF/Comet_40series.pdf


if the parts stuck together that would explain a lot!
the sheave (the one that's sticking inside the bell you cut the nut welds earlier) has to move freely inside said bell.
I think you should try to poke the sheave with a piece of tubing from the bell side,
if that fails, use penetrating oil
(but remember that has to be removed completely before you can use the driver again!!)

'sid

 

[bbullsj]

The bell moves seperatley from the rest of the driver with the welds off. The nut is definitely stuck to the shaft pretty well. I took a correct size socket and supported the bell and tapped on the shaft some but it did not want to come off. I didn't tap hard enough to bend anything, just enough to see that it wasn't coming off easy. So with a new driver, you should be able to just pull the bell and nut off of the shaft?

 

[qtband]

Do you have an impact wrench? That way, the whole thing won't move as you break it loose.

 

[bbullsj]

I will try that.

 

[bbullsj]

So I got completely frustrated with the clutch and cut part of the nut off. Come to find out it was threaded on....... so it then came off just fine. I truly believe that who I had fix it put the nut on backwards. I attached some of the pics of it. Im hoping I can still reuse it. Im going to flip the nut over and put it back together and see if that fixes my problem. If not, I might just bite the bullet and buy a new one so I can get this kart back running.

 

[itsid]

that looks all normal (except for the nut you just cut (for no reason ))
dry lube the pathways of the rollers and reassemble.
make sure that the sheave (the part currently holding the rollers & springs) slides freely in and out the bell (the other half)

if that's the case you're good to go.

Please attach a picture of the rest of your driver (inner sheave, returnspring etc..)

'sid

 

[landuse]

Looks OK to me too. Do what itsid says

 

[bbullsj]

yeah, the nut ticks me off but I can still use it. when i'm tightening the nut back on should it stop on its own or do I want it flush with something?