Gear ratios and distance questions

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scatteredsun

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I'm starting to plan out what's needed for my back axle and had some questions. I'm still working on my terminology so forgive me if I get some wrong...

Gear ratios - I've read a number of posts on this and I get the concept. Hope someone can double check my work.

Predator 420cc (probably won't de-govern for awhile)
Probably do a 40 series TC
18" wheels
No clue how heavy my cart is but I'll plan on 600lbs total?
If I do a 10T #41 to a 60T #41 that will give me a 6:1. Is that a solid ratio for a lot of torque but not a lot of top end speed? Or is it a ratio for disaster?

I'm going for tons of torque as this will be a farm work kart and will have to contend with hills, muck, and a small trailer

Next question. Does the distance between the driver of the TC and the driven axle sprocket matter (outside of the extremes of course)?
 

bob58o

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6:1 with a 40 series TC and 18" Tires should have a good amount of Torque.
It will top out about 32mph at 3600 RPM.

As long as the center of each pulley is within the range of available belts, then I say use whatever fits best. 7-1/4" to 14-11/32".
 

scatteredsun

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6:1 with a 40 series TC and 18" Tires should have a good amount of Torque.
It will top out about 32mph at 3600 RPM.

As long as the center of each pulley is within the range of available belts, then I say use whatever fits best. 7-1/4" to 14-11/32".

I'm going to get the 40 series with the backplate so that distance should be set for the two pulleys.

Just wondering about the distance from the TC sprocket to the axle sprocket. I don't have a lot of room to work with. I'll make sure nothing touches but is there a "too close" for those two sprockets?
 

KartFab

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i have about 1/2" on my kart and it has had no problem. iirc sprockets are #41 sprockets and i run #420 race chain on it. I know if you get further away from the sprockets, it is easier on the whole set up because the chain can 'wrap' more around the jackshaft sprocket.
 

bob58o

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One thing you might have to consider is the location of the mounting slots and how you tension the chain. If the little sprocket sits behind the big one, you need to be able to slide the engine back to tighten the chain.
If the little sprocket sits in front of the big one, you need to be able to slide the engine forward to tighten the chain.

When I had a 30 series TC with backplate on my buggy, the axle sprocket was inside the TC (well next to the backplate). I probably had less than an inch between the two sprockets.
 

SirHoustonTexas

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If you aren’t comfortable with removing the governor internally then all you need to do is disconnect it and “skip” it when you connect the throttle linkage. Just don’t let the arm fall inside of the block. There is a pin on there you will see. Since you aren’t racing it then I wouldn’t worry about it breaking apart if left inside.

The governor is commonly misunderstood on small engines.IT IS NOT JUST TO LIMIT YOUR TOP SPEED. It is a bit more complex then that. It operates like in this scenario:

1.You are mowing the lawn with an old school lawn mower that has a manual throttle position lever (Turtle and Rabbit)
2.You crank that baby to 3/4 rabbit position (3,000RPM) and proceed to cut the grass.
3.You want the engine to STAY at 3,000RPM CONSTANTLY.
4. There is frequently going to be increase and decrease in resistance against the lawn mower blades as you go between thicker and thinner grass.
5. You want your lawnmower to ADJUST THROTTLE up or down AUTOMATICALLY to maintain your chosen 3,000RPM.
*****6.The GOVERNOR senses the change in resistance(or load. or RPM) AND adjusts throttle accordingly to keep the engine at your selected RPM constantly. In other words you get to do your thing listening to music and focus on keeping your lines straight while the mower does its thing.******


IN THIS CASE
1. Your foot on the gas pedal is the governor.
2. I’m certain that you aren’t setting up your throttle to stay in position because you will constantly need to let off throttle and increase throttle for taking turns, uphill,etc.
3. If, hypothetically, you did have a throttle to stay in position constantly. When you wanted to change the load on the engine(A.K.A PRESS THE BRAKE! lol) the governor would try to increase the throttle to keep you at a constant speed.


If the throttle is not going to be used as a “set it and forget it” (Such as lawn mowers, pressure washers etc.) then there is no need for it and it is just an extra piece of plastic that can break off eventually inside your engine block. Make that the very first thing you do to it right out of the box while it’s clean.

As for the torque converter that is always the best route. In almost every case if you can grasp a true understanding beyond what we all hear everyday.

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING. Read research if it’s confusing because it’s very juicy.


If your engines torque PEAKS at we’ll say 15 ft. lbs. @4500RPM. The torque converter will engage there and change its gear ratio as you speed up (Vehicle Speed)to maintain its engine speed (RPMS)@peak torque(4500RPMS) as long as possible. Otherwise you would only actually have 15 ft. lbs. of torque for that very brief moment as you accelerate past it.

GET READY FOR MIND TO BE BLOWN OR DO NOT READ THIS NEXT PART.

In a big truck or car that is rated for 350HP@5200RPM/350TORQUE@4800RPM and has a manual or auto 4,5, or,6 gear transmission... It only has that much power, VERY BRIEFLY, inside every gear....every time the engine comes back around to those specified RPMS.

EPIPHANY YET?!? Get this... so what would be the fastest way to get down a straight track with the above engine?? IF WE COULD SOMEHOW KEEP THE ENGINE AT ITS PEAK TORQUE OF 4800RPMS FROM THE MOMENT WE LEAVE THE STARTING LINE ALL THE WAY DOWN THE TRACK. That would mean 350lb. Ft. Of torque the whole time!!!

SO HOW DO YOU DO IT? Well on a go kart or mini-bike it’s called a torque converter. On a grown up car it’s called a CVT!!! Continuously Variable Transmission.

WHY DOESNT EVERY CAR HAVE THIS IF ITS SO MUCH BETTER? Cuz they’re not as much fun.

2007 Nissan Maxima has a CVT. However, people like shifting so much that it has a manual mode where the CVT will simulate gears. It’s slower but hey it’s way more fun lol.



Take the governor out, definitely go for the 40 series, And keep everything else bone stock you will have a dependable and powerful machine. I ran a go cart with a GX 390 on a cheap clutch with a 1:5.1 gear ratio on 16” tires and it had torque that would put you in the seat... once the clutch engaged that is.

1:6 ratio on a TC and you will be extremely happy. Go for it.

Any of that spark protest or get you in thinking?? I’ll start a thread I ain’t scared
 

mckutzy

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If you let the gov spin not connected to throttle it will blow up and cause internal damage.
Modify position, keep stock, or remove... Those basically are your options...
 

SirHoustonTexas

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It’s not guaranteed to blow up. Especially a farm putter. Take the governor out and remove the oil sensor right out of the box and you won’t have to worry about it that’s my point. It will go faster than 32MPH I don’t what the calculators say they are never even close. With a torque converter there is a big window of gear ratio options that you will be happy with. I say go with what you had in mind 1:6. You will know what to do if you don’t like it.
 

scatteredsun

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Good stuff. Thank you both! The amount of ingenuity and engineering in these things is mind-boggling. Learning how a TC worked blew my mind.

I definitely wouldn't just unhook it. I'd go all the way and remove it. I'll look into it more. I watched Red Beard's video and it looked...intimidating. I don't think I'd go as far as removing the oil sensor. I'll just unplug that. Don't want to tap out holes and all that.

@mckutzy - you mention modifying it. Can you just swap the springs or something to help limit the amount of governance without taking apart the whole thing?
 

SirHoustonTexas

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If you’re pulling it right out of the box it’s a golden opportunity.
1. Take the sidecover bolts and cover off
2. Pull the camshaft
3. Pull the balancer
And your there!

---------- Post added at 11:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

And so is the oil sensor so might as well take care of that too. You don’t have to tap it just undo the bolts and cut the wire close.

---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------

If you can bolt it to the kart, install torque converter, and line up the chain and sprockets then you can do that and you’ll be glad you did. I would even send you me number and FaceTime if you needed it.
 

scatteredsun

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Are there any little gotchyas like needing to replace the gasket or making sure all the washers and little clips are out?

I may take you up on that. I'm going to look into it a bit more first. It'll be a bit before I get to that point. I used up all my fun money on the frame and other stuff. I'm also going to need to replace the rear axle and get a mounting plate welded on.
 

SirHoustonTexas

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If it’s right out of the box you can reuse the gasket. But the gasket is very important not just to seal it but the crankshaft has just enough clearance for the exact thickness of the gasket.

For example if you were to replace it with another slightly thinner gasket or just used RTV it would squeeze the crankshaft too tight and would not turn freely. Other than that there are no clips or pins etc. it’s very simple. Any clips or pins you are going to be removing.

---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------

I meant to say you’re going to be removing any pin or clip that is in the crankcase anyway
 

scatteredsun

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yeah, watched a couple videos. Doesn't look as bad now. Looks like the hardest part is putting the throttle linkage back together.

As for the oil sensor. Is there any benefit to removing it vs just clipping the wire on the outside?
 

Nosandwich

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yeah, watched a couple videos. Doesn't look as bad now. Looks like the hardest part is putting the throttle linkage back together.

As for the oil sensor. Is there any benefit to removing it vs just clipping the wire on the outside?

People with substandard brain cells will say :It gives you more room for more oil volume."

People with FUNCTIONAL brain cells will say just rewire it for a kill-switch.

But....its up to you.
 

Whitetrashrocker

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If you take the oil sensor out you need to make a cover plate. For the half a cup of oil it displaces, if that, is not really an argument for the more oil is better theroy.
 
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