Engine sounds like it's hitting a limiter

danielflo216

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I've got a cheap GX200 196cc clone type thing. I've done a lot of upgrades to it, such as jets, filter, header, 36lb springs, billet rod, removed governor, cam, the list goes on. Unfortunatley I haven't got to doing the flywheel because around the time I bought the engine I had the most hobby money to throw at the motor (so thats when I bought pretty much all of my upgrades). Apparently back then I didn't understand the importance of a decent flywheel so haven't got to buying or installing one. I start my engine up every now and then and give it a rev. I've got a cheap chinese tacho (the ones that you wrap around the plug boot) and I've set it to the 'spark every revolution' setting because I believe these engines have a wasted spark. When I rev it at absoloute max (not connected to wheels) the tacho reports the engine flattens out at around 3000rpm (give or take 50 or so rpm) and wont go any further. I've been at the track and heard go karts within the same modification class as mine and the '3000rpm' that my tacho reports sounds close to other similar engines 6000rpm. I can't trust the rpm based off sound alone but I also can't trust chinese tachometers because they are notorious for their defects and misreportings. I know that some coils have a built in limiter at 6100rpm, so it seems obvious to assume my tacho is reporting half of the engines actual rpm, and it was actually hitting a limiter at 6000rpm. I was wondering if there was any chance my chinese motor either had an electronic limiter in the coil or just had a dodgy coil that couldnt keep up with the rpms either or because of the weak magnet on the flywheel. I lean towards the latter because an electronic limiter in a cheap engine seems unlikely, but if it was a dodgy coil it should be sputtering around near redline, not hitting a stable and consistent ceiling. I've been watching Red Beards Garage where he runs a Ghost 212cc engine that comes built with a 6100rpm electronic limiter inside the coil (linked video and time at bottom of thread) and when he was revving it off the limiter it sounded absolutely identical (apart from the exhaust note because of the different headers) to how mine sounds when I max it out, and at what sounds like at the same RPM mine bounces off, down to the time intervals between and shakiness of the engine when it is being limited.

What do you guys think is the most likely cause of this rpm ceiling because I doubt such a cheap engine would come with a relatively expensive electronic limiter.

If it is the coil I am assuming the remedy is to buy an aftermarket or stock coil from ebay, unless there is another way?

Red Beards Garage video on the Ghost (skip to 14:49):
 

danielflo216

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Could be valve float also?
I thought that but how would it float with 36lb springs? its got chromoly pushrods and stock lift ratio rockers. A reason I could think of is that I purchased stock length chromoly pushrods but instead of the stock length I recieved slightly longer 5.440” rods when they arrived. Don't understand how rod lengths affect valvetrain geometry but to my knowledge it plays a part.
 

BaconBitRacing

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could be but i think pretty much all 4 stroke go kart ignition systems create a spark every revolution because the coil sparks every revolution of the flywheel which spins at 1:1 speed with the crank.
I had an idea, maybe the timing is off. They come factory with not enough timing advance, so it could just need a more advanced timing key. Brownstain can talk to ya about that.
 

G.W

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could be but i think pretty much all 4 stroke go kart ignition systems create a spark every revolution because the coil sparks every revolution of the flywheel which spins at 1:1 speed with the crank.
Yeah, the spark also burns off left over fuel to be more power efficient when the power stroke comes around
 

Denny

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Too long of pushrods will not let the rocker arm tip center itself on the tip of the valve. This leads to side loading of the valve stem. It will lead to excessive valve guide wear among other bad things.
 

BrownStainRacing

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The website says its spin tested to 8500rpm, what speed do you guys actually run it at?
7500 is a safe rpm for this flywheel.

It's gonna take alot more then jus throwing mismatched parts into an engine to turn 7500+. It starts with piston to cylinder clearance. Every single clearance has to be measured and set.

Why do engine builders charge so much??? It's not the parts, it's the brains it takes to set 1 up to last a few hrs, maybe 10-20 hrs, then tore down and done again.

If it was ez, we all would be turning 7500. it's not as ez as one might think.

Go look into outlaw race engines, they are not your back yard, fun time, daily driver engines.
 

BrownStainRacing

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This is from Dover Power. They don't build engines with untrusted parts, and clearances all outta wack.
I wouldn't be able to build this and make any $ off it with the parts they use.
Look at the parts they are using in the description.
Notice... not a slide carb, no hemi head, and the same flywheel. It's actually jus a pred 212 non hemi block, and head with work done to it.

You can copy this engine, he's got the parts list for you. You jus gotta check and measure clearances. It'll jus cost you more.

 
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redflash

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THIS IS MY OPINION.... Most 212 builders use 19 to 24 lb valve springs......36 lb ( in my humble opinion) is way too high. I believe because a 36 lb valve spring is made from a significantly thicker rod material.....that in a 196-212 cc you are experiencing coil bind, and NOT getting full valve extension. some guys will mill the valve spring seat a little deeper to compensate for coil bind. instead of all this excessive work on a small block
run down to harbor freight and get you a 420.....makes a whole lot more sense than what you're trying to do.
 

BrownStainRacing

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THIS IS MY OPINION.... Most 212 builders use 19 to 24 lb valve springs......36 lb ( in my humble opinion) is way too high. I believe because a 36 lb valve spring is made from a significantly thicker rod material.....that in a 196-212 cc you are experiencing coil bind, and NOT getting full valve extension. some guys will mill the valve spring seat a little deeper to compensate for coil bind. instead of all this excessive work on a small block
run down to harbor freight and get you a 420.....makes a whole lot more sense than what you're trying to do.
Yes, exactly right!!!
Those 36# springs caught my eye the first thing, and I lost interest right there.
Again, it takes brains to correctly set 36# springs in these small heads.
Opening the pockets, longer valves, shims to get correct spring install height, you better be using stainless steel valves with springs like that, 😆 🤣 😂.

I can't think of any .265" lift cam that needs 36# springs, unless using with ratio rockers. Again, money and more.... brains to use ratio rockers.

I must be all outta brains, cas I don't use big ratio rockers anymore. 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
 

danielflo216

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THIS IS MY OPINION.... Most 212 builders use 19 to 24 lb valve springs......36 lb ( in my humble opinion) is way too high. I believe because a 36 lb valve spring is made from a significantly thicker rod material.....that in a 196-212 cc you are experiencing coil bind, and NOT getting full valve extension. some guys will mill the valve spring seat a little deeper to compensate for coil bind. instead of all this excessive work on a small block
run down to harbor freight and get you a 420.....makes a whole lot more sense than what you're trying to do.
Yeah. I bought the red stripe 36lb springs from arc. They say they coil bind at .450 but my cam only does .265 and i have stock ratio rockers. Would rockers that weigh more not be able to return the valve to closed as fast because of their inertia and cause float? thats all I can think of. I don't understand how coil bind works at higher rpms because if there is too much lift surely there should be bind at idle. It's had a lot of work done to it including a high compression head and it doesn't even run rough or super lopey at idle. I don't really understand so if I don't make sense please explain it to me, although imo it doesn't seem like it's getting enough lift to bind.
 

danielflo216

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They bind with what length valves? Does it state stem length? Have you measured your valve stem length?
5.5mm stem (in/ex) stock size stock length stainless steel valves. with a 14cc head with guides for the 5.5mm valves preinstalled. it binds at .450 with the stainless valves as thats what the website says is necessary for installation.

Im not really a technic builder, Im very simple in the way that I get my parts, put them in and pray it runs and I dont have any spare parts at the end of a teardown. havent measured anything but everything should be mentioned in the links below, if you cant find any info on those links it probably has the stock values as the oem part.


I have only linked the 24mm exhaust valve but obviously for installation i also got the 25mm intake valve.
 
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