Dimmer switches

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urbanX

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hey guys and gals

i was thinking instead of a conventional pedal accelerator... could i use just run two batterys into a standard dimmer switch and then from that into a motor...this would just mean i could control the power and there fore speed and then i also have a kill switch...
would this work?...
Alex
:wai:
 

anderkart

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With good wire connections, a high quality automotive dimmer switch should handle around 20 amps of continuous curent flow at most any DC voltage. I dont know how many amps your setup will draw but these switches should handle short term amperage surges up to meyby 40 amps for like when your taking off from a dead stop.

The reason I mentioned good wire connections is many dimmer switches fail from all the resistance and heat build up of loose, dirty plug connections. Many times the 3 wire plug is burnt and melted on older cars. If I was using a dimmer switch like your thinking, I'd probably solder the wires directly to the switch to eliminate this posibility.

A dimmer switch made to fit most any 60's/70's GM product like this http://www.streetsideauto.com/produ...riceGrabber.com&utm_campaign=PriceGrabber.com would probably be a good choice. I'd try to buy the best quality one you could find.
 

frederic

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Make sure it's the older style rheostat dimmer and not the newer ones, because the newer ones provide a 0-5V voltage at less than 20 ma to a "body controller module". This fancyness started in the early 80's on luxury cars and regular cars and trucks joined in anywhere from the mid 80's to mid 90's depending on the particular car/brand.

Ford trucks used these until about 1996, then went fully electronic as well.

A better way to control a DC motor is with a PWM chopper circuit, and you can easily build one that does 20-50 amps for less than $20 in parts.
 

urbanX

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hi
i didnt really introduce my self btw
im english..but dont croos off :p
im just using a 24 volt motor from an old powered thing...
and also anything i use woulf have to be old...its a no cost prject challenge :p
great forum btw
 

brendonv

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I dont think a rheostat or potentiometer would work as a "speed controller". Probably cant take that many amps. Worth a shot but if it did work then everyone would be using them instead of speed controllers.
 

frederic

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A chopper circuit takes steady, DC voltage from the battery and converts it to a series of pulses, whereby the pulse width varies.

By varying the pulse width, you're changing the *average voltage* the motor sees and therefore the RPM. Remember that with brushed DC motors current controls torque and voltage controls speed.

http://www.solorb.com/elect/solarcirc/pwm1/index.html

Of course this is much more complicated than a simple dimmer switch you'd buy in the hardware store, but dimmers are for AC only by design therefore it will be of no use to you.

If you want an off-the-shelf solution here is one site that sells suitable motor controllers. One site of many:

http://www.electricscooterparts.com/speedcontrollers.html

Obviously you'd need to size the controller above your motor. Considering many of the scooter/kart motor controllers are made in certain areas of Asia, I'd also include a margin in the ratings. THis means if you have a 500W scooter motor, you buy a controller that can do 600W. For motors measured in "watts" instead of "horsepower" typically the price difference between a suitable controller and "one up" is a couple of dollars, maybe 10.

When you're playing with multi-horse electric motors, that's when the controllers get to be real expensive. For example, my son's kart that we're building will have a 4.5HP motor that runs on 12V. If I were to apply full power while it's not moving, that motor will draw about 300 amps. That's a lot of current for semiconductors so they need to be massively large and that equates expense.

Which is why i'm rolling my own controller... more features... less costs...
 

urbanX

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right...
i think this may be a case of getting my best friend to do it...;hes an elctrician im a driver not a mechanic
 

yellowgyro

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I Have a gyrocopter. It is like a helicopter except the rotor blades are free spinning and the engine is a pusher. As you pick up speed the rotor blades get faster and then you lift off. I have a 12 volt automobile starter to pre-rotate the blades. I need a controller that will soft start the motor so I can start the blades slowly and not apply full torqe to the blades. Could you tell me about your controller or send some info to me?

Thanks
Roger
 

Qmavam

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When you're playing with multi-horse electric motors, that's when the controllers get to be real expensive. For example, my son's kart that we're building will have a 4.5HP motor that runs on 12V. If I were to apply full power while it's not moving, that motor will draw about 300 amps. That's a lot of current for semiconductors so they need to be massively large and that equates expense.

Which is why i'm rolling my own controller... more features... less costs...
Hi frederic,
I'm curious about your 12v 4.5hp motor, can you tell me more about it? I have an electric gokart also, with a 28v 2hp motor.
I run the motor on 48 volts, and yes when I floor the pedal it
draws over 250 amps. The motor ratings are 28 volts at 51 amps, 2600 rpm, 2 hp. But it seems to be holding up. The current peaks and then as speed picks up the current goes down. At full speed cruise the current is about 40 amps.
I have an Alltrax NPX 4834, At times I wish I had got a programable controller so I could have a faster ramp up time, but I already have problems with sprockets, I spun the teeth off of my motor sprocket once and the teeth on my axle sprocket look like a sharks fin. If I ramped up to full power faster that problem would only get worse.
Anyway, tell me about your motor.
Mike
 

frederic

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The motor is a 4.5 HP, 12V Winch motor, made in china as a "knock-off" of a Ramsey. I disassembled it and it has decent bearings at both ends (double roller), atypical of what comes out of china. Not a bad deal for what I paid.

It has a 3/4" keyed shaft (requires a woodruff key rather than a square key) and is about 4-1/2" diameter. It's a series-wound motor so it will make a ton of torque at lower RPMs and max out around 2000-2500 RPM, which is fine for my application.

My controller is of my own design, and the power section is a set of IGBT's arranged as what is called an "H" bridge. The IGBT's replace S1 - S4 in this schematic:



Basically how an H-Bridge works is:
  • To drive the motor clockwise, you'd close S1 and S4.
  • To drive the motor counter-clockwise, you'd close S2 and S3.
  • To freewheel the motor, you leave all four open, and
  • To cause a braking action you'd close S2 and S4.

Closing S2 and S4 essentially short circuits the motor leads to each other (and ground) and since a motor spinning through inertia is a generator, this shorting action causes the motor to brake very quickly, decreasing it's braking ability as it slows down.

I chose IGBT's over mosfets simply because of the current requirements - a 4.5HP motor produces about 3400 watts which can easily draw 300A continuous and peak higher than that. Mosfets, while they switch much faster than IGBT's, are not made large enough (in an affordable package) to do this job as a single unit, so I'd have to run multiple mosfets in parallel to be able to pass the kind of current this motor is going to draw. The drawback to running mosfets in parallel is that the input (gate) capacitance goes way up and it becomes increasingly more difficult to switch them quickly, and that's one of the more important things to consider when designing a high-current motor controller - switching time.

Because semiconductors never turn on and off "instantly" and instead take a few microseconds, there are instances where S1 can be told to turn off while simultaniously S2 is turned on, and because S1 doesn't shut off instantly and S2 doesn't turn on instantly, there's a moment in time where S1 and S2 are closed enough whereas high current will go from the battery positive rail to the battery negative rail (ground). With a system capable of pumping 300+ amps through the motor, that's a ton of current for the semiconductors to sink. So the design has to consider this fact and devise a way to minimize it. It's difficult to eliminate entirely, but the smaller time window this "short" exists the better for the semiconductors, power supply, nearby radios and televisions and computers (EMI radiation).

Mosfets switch faster, but can't handle 300A in a single, affordable device. IGBT's switch slower, but can be had in 300A and 600A packages as a single, affordable device.

To control motor speed one has to build a PWM controller and that can be done a variety of ways either as a dedicated circuit or implemented through a computer chip/processor of some kind. Because I want programability and the ability to do more than stop/start/change direction, I'll be using a PIC chip - particularly the 18F4550 because I have two of them to experiment with. This is the point I'm at right now, writing code.

To cause a slow-start condition on a PWM-controlled motor, one simply has to make the pulses increase their width slower than what the throttle potentiometer says to do so. This is one of the advantage of the PIC chip because I can use that chip to read the value of the pot, then increase the pulse rate based on a constant over time until it matches the pot, rather than using the pot to determine the pulse width directly. I'll give an example, maybe that will help.

The motor is at rest, and the pulse width is 1%.

The pot is rotated to it's midpoint.

The PIC notices the pot was rotated to it's midpoint, and every second increases the pulse width by 2% until the pulse width equals 50%, matching the potentiometer.

Once the pulse width equals the value of the potentiometer (50% in this example), the PIC maintains that pulsewidth until the pot is changed to another setting.

As described, you also have a slow-down feature unless you modify the code so that any decrease in the setting of the pot *instantly* changes the pulse width to the new, lower value.

I'm taking it a step further and adding some logic, and a second pot, to use as a proportional brake pedal, which will have priority over the throttle pedal. More brake pedal equates more braking action.

That's the jist of the motor and the controller. I'll also post this on my blog here since it directly relates to my project.
 

frederic

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But it seems to be holding up. The current peaks and then as speed picks up the current goes down. At full speed cruise the current is about 40 amps.

Most motors can draw a much higher peak current than it does normally cruising along at optimal RPMs.

Before I bought this winch motor, I was actively looking for a golf motor in the same HP range.

I spun the teeth off of my motor sprocket once and the teeth on my axle sprocket look like a sharks fin. If I ramped up to full power faster that problem would only get worse.

What size chain/sprockets are you running? #40 or smaller?
 
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