Daisy chain torque converters
- Thread starter Smok e
- Start date
ezcome-ezgo
G'me sumthin to write on
A 70 series torque converter disaster.
me thinks the reason you're getting no response, is that no one has tried it, or willing to guess. Can you draw a graphic to explain what you're
asking? Are you saying a drive clutch from a 30 matched to a driven of a 40 ? I think we're stymied here ! What are you hoping to accomplish?
Da Flash
asking? Are you saying a drive clutch from a 30 matched to a driven of a 40 ? I think we're stymied here ! What are you hoping to accomplish?
Da Flash
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
"Daisy chaining" when I was wiring controls for every space in a new government building meant running a single "twisted pair" of digital wire IN PARALLEL through the whole building, just tying off of that main run with drops to every space. I don't think "daisy chain" would be the way to describe what you want to do with a pair of TC's, whether same or different series.
Smoke, if you mean an entire 30 in one place, an entire 40 in another place, and a chain or something between the 30's output sprocket and the 40's driver clutch (2 whole TC's hooked up IN SERIES), yes you can do that, just run both in the same direction.
I won't pain my brain with trying out the logarithmic math required to predict what the performance curve would be, not enough Tylenol in the house to cure that gray matter bomb. Try it, let us know how she go, bwana don.
Absolutely that would not work, redflash. The 30 series uses an asymmetric belt, the 40 series a V-belt, can't run both from the same belt.
Smoke, if you mean an entire 30 in one place, an entire 40 in another place, and a chain or something between the 30's output sprocket and the 40's driver clutch (2 whole TC's hooked up IN SERIES), yes you can do that, just run both in the same direction.
I won't pain my brain with trying out the logarithmic math required to predict what the performance curve would be, not enough Tylenol in the house to cure that gray matter bomb. Try it, let us know how she go, bwana don.
Denny
Canned Monster
You could run a 40 to a 30 maybe. It would be a colossal waste of horsepower though. Any way you do it underdriven or overdriven.
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
True about the power waste, caused by drive components' resistance. Like the difference between just an engine on a dyno, or rear wheels sitting on dyno rollers. Is that what we call "brake horsepower"? The actual at-the-wheels power that's being delivered to the ground?
Read a number somewhere that gave a fairly decisive % of the power loss you could expect from a TC after going through the belt, the self-adjustment of the pulleys, changing belt tension and possibly some misalignment with it, etc. Anybody know what that number is? I think it was in a manufacturer's spec description of their own TC's.
Smoke, whatever that % loss would be, it would of course end up double or worse of that % loss if 2 TC's were to be hooked up in series. "Colossal waste" is a good way to put it, Denny.
Definitely not a wasted question though, I live for envisioning unseen physics problems. Keeps the gray matter (now gray soup) stirred and healthy.
Read a number somewhere that gave a fairly decisive % of the power loss you could expect from a TC after going through the belt, the self-adjustment of the pulleys, changing belt tension and possibly some misalignment with it, etc. Anybody know what that number is? I think it was in a manufacturer's spec description of their own TC's.
Smoke, whatever that % loss would be, it would of course end up double or worse of that % loss if 2 TC's were to be hooked up in series. "Colossal waste" is a good way to put it, Denny.
Definitely not a wasted question though, I live for envisioning unseen physics problems. Keeps the gray matter (now gray soup) stirred and healthy.
GreyW00lf
Member
I heard that it was a bit between 10 to 20 % power loss, not that I fully believe the 20% part.
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
That sounds really correct to me, at least as far as my burnt-out memory can recall. Definitely 10% for the minimum number, then maybe 15-20% ? Good call on that, GreyW00lf. Oh, BTW: Remember a thing called "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?"? Or maybe can never forget it?
Smoke, here's another factor to consider............The 30 series TC can have a 6" or 7" driven pulley, and the 40 series a 7.5" or 8.5" driven pulley (see gokartsupply.com link below). While playing with the numbers on components resistance (10-20%), applicable horsepower, engagement range of the clutch springs, gear ratio of a chain between 2 T.C.'s, etc., you can also look at the differences between the 4 possible combinations of the 30 and 40 series possible driven sizes.
Tylenol. Lots of Tylenol.
Comet Drive Belts | Comet Torque Converter Belts | Go Kart Belts (gokartsupply.com)
GreyW00lf
Member
Not to De-Rail this thread, I've heard about that, but haven't heard about it in a long time... Back to the topic at hand
madprofessor
"Loose Cannon Creations"
So long that the movie poster I can recall seeing at the State Theatre on Monroe St. in the "60's was in black and white.
Thinking about the expensive centrifugal clutches (Bully, etc.) folks put on karts for higher stall speeds etc. Anybody have a thought on what changing the garter springs on a TC driver clutch to a much higher engagement rpm would do for the 2 TC's mounted in series like proposed? Like for reducing belt slip loss on that one, and maybe also do same to secondary one?
The thought was small h.p.engine using "modified" 30 series as transmission for said engine.....max it out on jackshaft that is turning driver for "modified" 40 series.
40 series engagement set for maxxed 30 series. 40 series to axle.
Thought of a 2 speed torque converter. If both can be transmission individually then why can't one power the other.
40 series engagement set for maxxed 30 series. 40 series to axle.
Thought of a 2 speed torque converter. If both can be transmission individually then why can't one power the other.
Denny
Canned Monster
Well build it then and prove us wrong. Maybe you are seeing something we can’t or have a better idea. I won’t knock you for trying.
Instead of delaying up shift I would make it shift sooner. You have to remember to think of each shift is a delay in time.
I would make it shift sooner
Not really trying to prove anyone anything.
Other experience or another set of eyes on a project even before proof of concept might just keep one from wasting material on an unseen issue even though it was right there all along. TC's do operate generally on rotation wasn't sure why one could not be the "engine" for the other. Changing rpm's to crazy but useful #'s
Thanks for pointing out any lack of edumacation on my part. Especially y'all old heads out there.
Other experience or another set of eyes on a project even before proof of concept might just keep one from wasting material on an unseen issue even though it was right there all along. TC's do operate generally on rotation wasn't sure why one could not be the "engine" for the other. Changing rpm's to crazy but useful #'s
Thanks for pointing out any lack of edumacation on my part. Especially y'all old heads out there.
Denny
Canned Monster
You know In thinking about it you might be better off going, engine - 40 series - 30 series - rear axle. Torque might improve.
Can appreciate the bar stool theory.
I doubt that any answers will appear from anything other than trying it.
Probably the first thing to check is if the engine has anything to give beyond the single CVT system.
I would setup a low final gearing after the CVT to match easy starts.
Then measure the top gearing performance there
Then raise final gearing to the max the engine will pull.
Any difference would tell you the one CVT is leaving something on the table.
But you might find that the one CVT is already giving as much of a range as the engine has to handle
It reminds me of back in the day I did some motorcycle roadracing.
There were times when a sixth gear was somewhat overgeared and would be slower than 5th.
Scooter CVT's tend to have smaller pulley diameters.
That would obviously give a smaller range of gearing ratio's
They also typically have a different type of clutch function, a centrifugal clutch piggybacked on the driven pulley.
One result is that part of the pulley ratio range isn't being "wasted" on the clutching function
If the engine can actually handle a gearing range beyond the CVT (not the simple gearing, that can be adjusted on the final gearing), then maybe there is something to gain.
But you may have to get away from the two CVT's both having the Torque Sensing function (driven pulley angles), I could see the two competing.
Maybe one with TS and the other modified without TS, to be variable gearing only
I doubt that any answers will appear from anything other than trying it.
Probably the first thing to check is if the engine has anything to give beyond the single CVT system.
I would setup a low final gearing after the CVT to match easy starts.
Then measure the top gearing performance there
Then raise final gearing to the max the engine will pull.
Any difference would tell you the one CVT is leaving something on the table.
But you might find that the one CVT is already giving as much of a range as the engine has to handle
It reminds me of back in the day I did some motorcycle roadracing.
There were times when a sixth gear was somewhat overgeared and would be slower than 5th.
Scooter CVT's tend to have smaller pulley diameters.
That would obviously give a smaller range of gearing ratio's
They also typically have a different type of clutch function, a centrifugal clutch piggybacked on the driven pulley.
One result is that part of the pulley ratio range isn't being "wasted" on the clutching function
If the engine can actually handle a gearing range beyond the CVT (not the simple gearing, that can be adjusted on the final gearing), then maybe there is something to gain.
But you may have to get away from the two CVT's both having the Torque Sensing function (driven pulley angles), I could see the two competing.
Maybe one with TS and the other modified without TS, to be variable gearing only
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Budget GoKart
Aka a kenbar
are thinking how some mud trucks have dual transmissions?