cycle kart build. planing

[racerc2000]

Im thinking of building one of these.

and was wondering what you guys thought about these wheels.

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/ramxfrwhas1.html
I may be able to get them cheaper but. @ 39$ each they include the tire,bearings and disk for brakes.

16" is the perfect scale wheel size or so they say @cyclekarts

I was thinking of adding calipers for the front 2 wheels. and replacing the disk with a bolt on sprocket for the rears. and either running a transaxle with sprockets or a jackshaft with sprockets to run the 2 wheels (would give the ability to go into limp mode if a chain broke)

and could have 4 wheel independent suspension if wanted.

what do you guys think? would the wheels hold up to the speed and weight? they use a 12mm axle
6001RS 12x28x8 Sealed Ball Bearings. but IM sure new bearings could be fitted if axle is too small.

 

[birddog1148]

Those things look pretty cool.

 

[racerc2000]

yea I figured they looked pretty cool. and being the nature of the builds and the light nature racing these people do.

they seem to be legal vehicles. many people register them as light use vehicles

Cyclekart= A one-seat car using Honda 17"x 1 3/4" or 2" rims, 2.50 x 17" tires (2.75's have been used on the Alfa), a 38" track, wheelbase as close to 66" as the aesthetics of the car will allow (err on the shorter side for more abstract cuteness and general attractiveness), weight no more than 250lbs , and powered by a 200cc, single cylinder, 6.5 hp Honda OHV engine (the GX200). A Cyclekart should not cost more than $1750 to build in 2001 dollars (this is to avoid spending races where people start hiring out parts and making things too nice; we're not making show cars, and an element of scrounging adds to the fun).
Some measurements:
Max Length: 98"
Max Width: 40"
1"X3" steel framerails (84" long in the Type 59, rear axle 10" ahead of aft end) The 1" X 3" steel stock comes in thicker and thinner walls; we use the thinner 1/16".
Front springs 24" X 1 1/4", 2 leaf 1/2 elliptics

they have rules for specific races. I dont plan to race. as I havent heard or seen any local racing of these.


Power is transmitted via a Comet TAV-30 unit to one wheel only. Braking is also on this same rear wheel by mechanical Comet disc. NO front brakes. See the FAQ for the important reasons behind this. No rear suspension (weight gain not worth it). All of the cars have the same front and rear axle dimensions. The front axle is made up from 1 5/8" O.D. tubing, and is dropped to accommodate the leaf springs, Azusa spindles and brackets are welded on. Front axle angles are taken from an old Amilcar blueprint; they're not our own, but they work well. The steering columns and steering wheel hubs are also Azusa, lengthened to suit each car. The rear axle, drive sprocket, and hubs are also Azusa: 1" X 36" long axle, 72 tooth main sprocket, #40 chain. Front springs are buggy seat springs, half-elliptic. The fixed end has been mounted at both the front and rear ends, depending on the car. It hasn't seemed to matter which end gets the shackles. The wheels are Honda Super Cub, Passport, or Trail 90. Azusa rear wheel hubs are used on their 1" axles, and the lug bolts are ground to fit inside the Honda motorcycle hubs. New through bolts are located near the hub-reinforcing webs in the motorcycle wheels. Only one hub is keyed (the right for all our cars, and the tracks are designed with this bias in mind). Be sure to grease the freewheeling hub.


it seems like a good baseline of design but I feel I will have a live axle and will have brakes all around.

any ideas would be much appreciated also.

 

[birddog1148]

They sugest that due to the tire size that dual rear brakes or front brakes lead to loss of stearing control. They seem to have some pretty good info over on their web site.

 

[racerc2000]

the way they speak of it. they want all cars to be even on the track setup wise. and to get used to inadequate brakes.

i can see why they wouldnt want one car out there to stop much better then the others. youde get rear ended.

thats why its not a competitive sport and more for the fun.

I wont be doing these races. but at min ide want a live axle in the rear with a good brake. as opposed to their right rear wheel being the drive and brake. and tracks are based on this attribute.

I also plan on more then 6.5hp may use my 14hp or a quad motor with reverse.

but the quad motors etc lack even the torque of the 6.5hp

another thing im wondering. it it a sign of the times or would it be better handling if the wheels were out rather then in?

 

[birddog1148]

Still think they are cool. Wonder if it could be licenced like a golf cart is around here.

 

[racerc2000]

ide say depending on how you build it.

the 6.5hp ones do like 25-30mph so they should be right in that golf cart range. and it looks much better also.

may even be able to register it like a class c moped

deff more likeable then a low and small go kart out on the street.

they are pretty sizeable and this one is on the smaller size. his is also body dropped to sit lower. most have the bottom level with the frame.

besides. in my area I see old 20s and 30s show cars driving round all the time. i cant see them being any safer to operate

 

[Screendoor]

I have really been considering building one of these myself. Let me know if you find any good blueprints for one of these. The races are invite only but I have never seen where these races even take place so I would be building it for fun.

 

[Screendoor]

I wonder what the max safe speed would be for one of these?

 

[racerc2000]

well safe speed would most likely depend on how well you build it.

im sure some will say otherwise but. its very easy to build somthing thats safe for 25-30.

but all in all. the old racecars had oak yes wooden frames. with anything from strait 6s to v12s.

the way I see it if you use highway speed rated tires. good bearings and a sturdy frame. I see it doing atleast 50 55 in a safe manner. wood body can be used and be fine im sure. but ide do a metal sub structure

weight is about 250lb no driver. powered by a 6.5 hp engine and very minimal brakes. right rear wheel is everything. stop and go.

if you would like some blueprints. heres a link to a 11hp build. with full brakes etc
http://homepage.mac.com/gaudel/HTMLSITE/bugatti/bugatti.html

its also a bit larger closer to real scale.

http://www.cyclekartparts.com/services.php heres a link to see the frame and components. it seems grossly over priced imo

the best bet is to find a car style you like. google has lots of info about these real cyclecars. take the real design and scale them to 1/2 to 2/3 scale or.. any scale you really desire.

the norm seems to be a wheelbase of 66" or alil shorter for cartoon cuteness. with 17"X2 wheels and 17X2.5 tires.

my design is leaning more on the 58" around wheelbase and 16" wheels

need to find me a harley servicar rear axle for the hell of it.

 

[racerc2000]

this is prettymuch what I want to build just scaled a bit.

mine will have a metal frame though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQMLLJRfwnw&feature=player_embedded

prob lots like this with a steampunk/ratrod kinda look. it will be a bit heavy... maybe not but I will go with a sheetmetal body as opposed to plywood and fiberglass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVK_4JWZw6c&feature=related lol

 

[Screendoor]

It would be awesome to have a street legal version of one of these. this is something I will have to work on with my son when he gets a little older.

 

[smcameron]

ide say depending on how you build it.

the 6.5hp ones do like 25-30mph so they should be right in that golf cart range. and it looks much better also.

may even be able to register it like a class c moped

deff more likeable then a low and small go kart out on the street.

they are pretty sizeable and this one is on the smaller size. his is also body dropped to sit lower. most have the bottom level with the frame.

besides. in my area I see old 20s and 30s show cars driving round all the time. i cant see them being any safer to operate

Whoa... that's my kart!

Actually, I think mine is about typical size for cyclekarts in most dimensions except length, and mine is a bit longer than usual. (The angle of the photo may make it seem shorter than it really is.) The drop body is pretty typical as well if you look at the pics here:
http://cyclekarts.com/CycleKartGallery.html

No way are these things street legal. If you went with battery power, added lights, etc., you might get away with some kind of Neighborhood Electric Vehicle (NEV) classification... that'd probably be the best bet. (Then again... I knew somebody with an Ariel Atom registered as a VW bug, so... who knows.)

If you're thinking about building a cyclekart, I recommend joining the yahoo group, as it's pretty active and there are a few people there who have built or are building karts.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group.cyclekart

(Yeah, yahoo's idea of groups sucks compared to google groups, etc. but, this is what we have.)

I have a few videos up about my kart...
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=5t333v3+cyclekart&aq=f

BTW, I'm in Houston, TX, so if someone here is also in Houston and is thinking of building a cyclekart and wants to see mine, compare notes, etc., just let me know.


p.s. I'm jealous of the 4 year old with the Bugatti. the 6.5hp honda doesn't seem even close to powerful enough to do donuts in a cyclekart large enough for an adult.

p.p.s: Another site you guys might like:
http://gittrevillegp.com/www.gittrevillegp.com/Welcome.html

Edit again: Here's a more recent pic of my kart:

-- steve

 

[smcameron]

As to the OP's question about the wheels. The main thing, I think, is, can you stuff a 3/4th inch axle through that thing and still have room for bearings. The 17 inch Honda CT90 wheels come with bearings that have 37mm outer diameter, 12mm inner diameter. Supporting the wheel from only one side, 12mm is not going to be strong enough. You can replace the bearings with 37mm outer/20mm inner diameter -- and 20mm is pretty close to 3/4th inch (can be shimmed) and the 3/4th inch spindles will fit inside the Honda wheels. So that's the question -- can these wheels take a 3/4th inch spindle, and still leave room for bearings that will fit?

If these wheels *are* useable, that would be a great thing, as finding the Honda wheels (at least in the U.S.) can be a bit challenging, despite the fact that the Honda CT90 is just about the most produced vehicle the world has ever known, and a known good, readily available, not too expensive alternative wheel would be a great find.

Other than that... seems ok. As for the brakes... I'll leave that up to you, but the "traditional" cyclekart recipe is 1 rear wheel only braking -- not that there are even close to enough cyclekart people out there that anyone's going to kick you out of the "club" for deviating from the recipe. As far as I can tell there are but a bare handful of people in the whole world building these things.

 

[Screendoor]

smcameron can you enlighten us on where you picked up your wheels? After a ton of google searching your kart was one of the first few that I found. I liked the video of you rolling out of your garage for the first time.

What about that Lotus in the garage???

Anyways, I am stationed in Virginia and I dont think Cyclekarts are popular around here. But I would love to come check out a race some time. Where are the races on the East coast?

 

[smcameron]

Screendoor,

I got 3 of the wheels off ebay, there's one guy, "hooteronthescooter" or something like that who seems to have a hoard of the wheels that he sells. Search for "ct90 front wheel", there are like 10 of them on ebay right now. Patience helps. I probably lost 5 or 6 auctions before I got all the wheels I needed. Most of the money in the kart is in the wheels, the engine+torque converter and misc. gokart parts. The 4th wheel, I got lucky and found one in a motorcycle salvage junkyard, and I think it was cheaper than the ones I got off ebay, but also in worse shape. I also found and bought several wheels in junkyards that don't work (mostly off yamaha dirtbikes, I think. They all kind of look the same, but they aren't really all the same.

As far as races... cyclekarts are not really what you'd call popular anywhere at all, as far as I can tell. I think I might be the only one in Houston building one -- so no races that I know of. Well, just recently on the yahoo group, there was some talk of an event at the thunderdome in Detroit next year. 1300 miles from me though.

There are two groups or "clubs" (sort of) of people with several karts all in one location that I know of, one is the original Stevenson's group (cyclekarts.com) and they may be more or less done with it (they started 10 years ago, I think) and the other group is the "gittreville people" (gittrevillegp.com) who I think are in the northwest (Seattle area, I think.) One guy started the gittreville thing, building one kart on his own, but happened to have space, a workshop, at his work that he could use to allow and to help others to build karts -- and a relative with some land for a track, and so he was able to get a group going by convincing others to build karts. So the thing with cyclekarts is, you not only have to build a kart, you have to help others build karts, and work to get a little local cyclekart club going too. I'm hoping once I get my kart done (bodywork and painting is most of what's left to do) then maybe I can take it to a few "cars and coffee" events around town and see if I can drum up some interest and get some other people around here building karts.

About the Lotus... heh, yeah that thing is a lot of fun, it distracted me from working on the kart for a little while when I first got it. They aren't as expensive as you might think, a new Honda minivan probably costs more. Horrendously impractical though, and scary in the rain (not that we have that in TX anymore.) I couldn't really recommend one as being your only car, no room for anything, and you look ridiculous getting in and out of the thing if the roof is on (you have to fit through a 2 foot high slot -- that's how tall the door opening is!) Keeps you somewhat limber though.

 

[Screendoor]

Thanks i will do some research on the tires and see what I can find.

 

[racerc2000]

smcameron Im glad I found your kart and you found us here.

insight from someone who is actually building one is a huge help.

most of the in-depth info I could find was on the cyclekart site and it was very limited and set on right rear wheel drive and brake.

I beilive my drivetrain will consist of. a 14hp briggs ohv. and a lawn tractor transaxle. (trans has already been machined for bearings and a 1" axle. breather added and is filled with gear oil instead of grease.)
engine will have a cam upgrade. oiler mod and governor removed.

trans will be run at a 2:1 ratio 12T clutch 24T on trans( or a torque converter) and off the axles it will be run a 14T 72T but this will be decided by final tire selection. (trans has 6 speeds. but the gear selector im making will have notches cut for 2nd 4th 6th and reverse to make it a 3 range setup. 4th gear is the 1:1 range 2nd would be not needed really but it would be good for hills etc. 5th and 6th are way overdriven and would smoke a clutch on takeoff if not geared for it. but good for top speed.

the engine already has electric start and an alternator. so lights will be easy

as for the bearings. im searching for sizes in the 28X8 outside and width range but if need be I can machine the hubs maybe.

also... just a thought. for front wheels. the ct90 wheels have less support on the inside. due to the drum brake area. the disk brake cheapies I found have an almost matching support structure inside and outside. 9mm would be a sizeable increase to bore out the hubs I will purchase atleast one and mic everything up and see what can be done with them. if its an easy mod it just may be a good replacement for used wheels that are becoming scarce

as for rears.bearings can e removed and custom hubs can be made and bolted to the 6 bolt brake rotor area.

as for the VW bug thing. prettymuch any home built car can be reg as a vw bug if you have bug papers. engine location etc doesnt matter as long as you have the vin# somewhere and a title/bill of sale.

I used to have a dune buggy built off a karmann gia chassis. and
it was registered as a the car not buggy. its like building a house. keep one board of the original and its not a "new" house

 

[smcameron]

Well you sound like you know what you're doing. Your kart will be quite a lot more powerful and complex than a "normal" cyclekart (as if there were such a thing). Motorcycle wheels on these things aren't necessarily the best at handling side loads, so I'd be slightly worried about that if your kart is significantly heavier or more powerful -- not that I have any experience with it other than with my own kart. Even the "normal" cyclekarts have issues with wheels getting out of true due to side loads exerted on the wheels though. It'll be interesting to see how your kart comes out.

As for the VW thing, I don't think there are any vw parts on an ariel atom, though I suppose a person could put some on. http://arielatom.com

Edit: BTW that GN you're planning to emulate is badass! My kart is (*very* loosely) emulating a Delage Bequet. Right now I'm researching fiberglass fabrication, which I know nothing about, so I can make the hood and tail cone. The tail cone esp. scares me, as I fear I won't be able to make it look right.

 

[racerc2000]

cant wait to see when your fiberglass work is done. that rear bone is going to be a pita but well worth the effort when done.

from all the posts and my searching ive decided I will build 2 cyclekarts. the first will be a more basic and true to the specs stated. 6.5hp 1 wheel etc.

from there I will test the stress it can take.

from what ive noticed the models for cyclekarts. tend to have a weird camber setup in the front. I dont know it it is just due to the era they come from or a specific handling characteristic.

the wheel angle is like that of a lawn tractor. not like that of a gokart or sports car.

but....

now this is just a brainstorm but wouldnt neutral camber be better then positive camber? and negative better then all in a performance setting?

wouldnt positive camber place more side load on the wheels in a turn?


Roads slope down at the edges so that water drains off them. This is called the camber of the road. Very early automobiles were often designed with positive camber, where the tops of the front wheels were further apart than the bottoms. This meant that the tyre tread was square on to the road surface. This practise died out as cornering speeds increased, the cornering forces are trying to roll the tyre off the rim!(Author Bob Carter http://cauc-f24.org/docs/Handling.html)


on my final performance build I may be forced to use 4 of these. 15" mustang or turbo coupe aluminum space saver spare.

or deviating even more from the original look 16" 98-02 camaro SS spare.

not the best of options. but for 15$ to 50$ each at a junkyard they shouldnt be too hard to find and Im sure the side to side strength would be drasticly improved at an increase of weight and lack of wire wheel look.