Can a 40 series TQ engage in reverse?

[TheInspiredFool]

Hey all. I have a Hammerhead 150 that had the original gy6 replaced with a liquid cooled fake Zongshen 200cc ATV engine that has a 4sp with reverse. I am in the process of fixing the silliness that the last owner had going on with it so I am still in the planning stages with regurds to set-up. I want to set it up so my wife and oldest son can drive it easily in our small yard so I was going to run a chain from the engine/transmission to a jackshaft with the 40 series clutch, the belt to the driven on another jackshaft and then a chain to the axle.


My only question is if the clutch will engage in reverse. I think it will but wanted to consult those who may have experience in the matter first. It doesn't matter if the driven changes it's speed, I just need the ability to crawl backwards.

Thanks in advance.

 

[jmaack]

why use a cvt and the original engines transmission?

 

[karl]

why use a cvt and the original engines transmission?

???

 

[mckutzy]

The cvt needs to be driven by the engine itself.. the Geared output wont engage the CVT driver.. As it spins too slow...
This would also be dully redundant.....
Whats wrong with the stock engine cvt???

 

[TheInspiredFool]

So the wife and kids can drive it like an automatic and not have to shift. Just pull the clutch lever, put it in gear, slowly release the clutch and it will sit like its in neutral. When they hit the gas it grabs and goes. If they let off it kicks into a neutral state and they won't have to try to squeeze the clutch lever when braking. Plus it will have all the speed they need in our yard in one gear. It basically turns it into an automatic and is much easier to drive. I am going to gear it for 2nd gear for yard driving so that we have a low gear for 2 adults with hill climbing grunt. We will still have 2 more gears for any kind of speed we will likely want in open areas.

 

[mckutzy]

Itll require a different type of engine if that one is clutch operated, and not able to be converted to semiauto...

 

[TheInspiredFool]

The cvt needs to be driven by the engine itself.. the Geared output wont engage the CVT driver.. As it spins too slow...
This would also be dully redundant.....
Whats wrong with the stock engine cvt???

I can gear it to output a higher rpm to the jackshaft and put in light springs (or no spring(s) at all) and/or heavy rollers so that it will engage appropriately. The current engine is a full manual transmission. I want to make it like an automatic.

I just need to know if anyone knows whether a 40 series will engage in a reverse rotation.

---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------

I already have a 10hp engine with 4 forward gears and a robust reverse (for a gokart thats geared properly). It is much better to just engineer a torque converter to obtain the end goal of an automatic-like drive system than spending the time and money trying to source an engine that is equally powerful, with a cvt and robust enough reverse gear.

I only need to know if a 40 series clutch engages if the rotation is reversed.

 

[jmaack]

yes they do.

 

[TheInspiredFool]

yes they do.

Thanks, Jmaack. I thought they did but wanted to be sure before I spent the money.

???

Yup. Fo' sho.

Instead of buying a 200cc gy6 and swap the set up from what the last owner changed it to I will use the $500 engine/transmission that I already have, buy a $100 TC, $150 in parts for the jackshaft set-up and end up with what I want, 3 extra gears, more robust reverse, much more variety of gearing for varying loads and terrain, gain low end capabilities, more top speed and STILL save a couple hundred dollars more than buying a different engine with a cvt and reverse... And all I have to do is a little math and a couple simple mods to the primary clutch to figure out proper clutch engagement. It seems to be the better way to go to me.

But atleast you found a funny meme. Great job.

 

[itsid]

It is much better to just engineer a torque converter to obtain the end goal of an automatic-like drive system than spending the time and money trying to source an engine that is equally powerful, with a cvt and robust enough reverse gear.

I only need to know if a 40 series clutch engages if the rotation is reversed.

And that will proof to be incorrect as soon as you try I'm afraid

the driver clutch engages just nicely in reverse.. but as soon as you rev it the driven will kick your behind but jumping over it's buttons and essentially self destruct.
the driven is a strictly one way unit!

And forward isn't exactly working either, apart from the engagement issue you so elegantly waved off, the original gear ratios are working against the TC at all times.
depending on the final chain ratio
either they remove the necessary torque for the driver to work against the driven spring, up in high gears,
OR they will put enough of a load into the system to shred the belt in an instant again.

That is an idea that only looks good on paper and only for as long as you do not think about it.

The problem:
the series 40 is a torque regulated driven, there are speed regulated driven units, that indeed might work as long as the reverse-gear is BEHIND the CVT part;
but frankly those are more expensive than a semi auto with a generous amount of power, unlikely that you'd be interested at all

The absoute best thing you could do is to pop a gy6 style back in
(I think there's a 250cc with semi auto if I'm not mistaking.. not really a gy6 any longer but it's almost a drop in replacement)

the next best thing:
teach the wife and kids on how to operate a shifter.

This approach will more than likely fail.

'sid

 

[TheInspiredFool]

Thanks itsid, thats what I was looking for. I saw there was a reverse spring for the driven in case you wanted to mount it opposite of the intended direction so I was wondering if it would mess up if driven in the opposite direction. I thought that the spring on the driven (secondary) would just fail to change the relative gearing size. I didn't think they would destroy themselves.

As far as the gearing, I am only concerned about it being geared to a low speed (up to 15mph) and as long as it has enough oomph to tug around 2 "sturdy" adults and where my son won't end up in the neighbor's yard trying to steer with one hand and engage the clutch with the other on the gear lever/motorcycle clutch lever. It's been done before and seemed to be an improvement, it just didn't have reverse.

My wife can drive a manual but she doesn't have the strength to turn the wheel at low speeds with one hand so if she ever has to take off and turn at the same time it gets pretty sketchy lol I thought about trying to reconfigure the peddle set-up to add a foot clutch actuated peddle but it seemed like an all around better idea to try to toss a TC on it and putter around the yard that way.

Maybe I will try a Centrifugal Force Clutch?

---------- Post added at 04:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:20 AM ----------

Oh, and the last owner cut and moved everything around to fit this new engine in so there is no longer a drop in replacement gy6 type engine for it. I would have to undo all the silly stuff he did just to spend the money to replace it with a different engine.

We did a mini bike with a 2 speed and torque converter. It was because the bike was a manual and the difference between the riders varied by 200lbs+lbs and we had kids that couldn't quite get the hang of the clutch down. With the 2 speed gearbox it was kinda reversed by using the torque converter becauce it varied how many RPMs the engine revved before the clutch engaged. It was a nice compromise that solved a few issues pretty easily. It was not really meant to be fast, just fun for everyone big and small. It worked well. I figured I could try to accomplish the same goals with this but didn't know if reverse would work out or not. The load varies between 120lbs to 500lbs and I'm the only one that can drive it well as it is now, especially when you have to use the clutch and turn at the same time. I just want to find a solution to meet our goals without completely redoing everything and spending too much money. I am aware of the compromises.

The kart only needs to go 15mph with either a light passenger or heavy load of 2 passengers, be automatic-like and retain reverse capabilities all while finding the most cost effective and some-what swift solution.

Goals

 

[itsid]

I thought that the spring on the driven (secondary) would just fail to change the relative gearing size. I didn't think they would destroy themselves.

yeah the spring will need to be replaced as well as the buttons, worst case the cam will snap in half (and that too is a replaceable part)
So the driven is always repairable..
still belt, buttons, spring are under constant replacement and that will add up very quickly. (~50 bucks per try)

Not exactly a smart way to spend money

There is never a situation where you need to steer and shift at the same time, a gear shift takes less than a second, you can always do so before or after any corner or obstacle

Anyhow, bad steering is unfortunately a thing with many chinese made mini buggies.
BUT there is a solution for that albeit a tiny hair sketchy (thanks to front suspension)
You can incorporate Ackermann steering geometry
(usually that requires elongating the steering linkage on the spindle
arm slightly)
so that pivot (kingpin), linkage connection and center of the rear axle are perfectly inline on both sides.
that reduces the effort by a good amount and best of all, it also reduces understeer alot.

There is a commercially available speed shifter for motorcycles.
Usually mounted to race-prepped sportbikes only (and not exactly cheap)
a universal "quickshift" kit costs around 200 bucks to remove the need for the clutch. (fuel and spark will be cut of for a split second)

the power shifting adds another few hundred bucks (200-300)
to have the actual gearchange happening by pushbuttons on the steering wheel instead of a lever on the side.
And swapping from rods to twin cables shouldn't be too bad I guess.

Maybe that's an option for you then...
since with a bit of thinking you can mount cable actuated shifting levers on the steering wheel instead.
200 is about what you might need to spend for the TC and it's first or second inevitable failure anyways.
so all the strength required would be comparable to that hitting bicycle brakes.
and with the hands still on the steering wheel... steering should be okay, right?


'sid

 

[TheInspiredFool]

We already ruled out a TC... Which was my reason for this post.

The theory that anyone would not have to work a clutch and steer at the same time only looks good in a perfect scenario and only as long as you don't think about it. There are plenty of times that you have to work a clutch and adjust steering input at the same time in a small yard.


The difficulty is that the steer wheels are located further back on the buggy so there is more weight on the steer tires and the fact that you have to turn the strut to steer means that the steering is going to still be difficult.

So either buy another engine and redesign it to fit or get a racing air shifter. I'm so glad that I came to this DIY gokart forum.

 

[itsid]

Well maybe that's what you get from driving mainly automatic, IDK
in the 28years I move under artificial power I never actually had to shift cornering
other than on a race track once or twice (and even that is considered WRONG!)

Nevermind!

Now, if all that's hindering your wife from cornering is the second hand on the wheel,
then convert to shift-pedals on the steering wheel.
again it's fairly straight forward .. two cable actuators (one left for down, one right for up)
and a foot clutch should already cover that.
In order to remove the clutch entirely (somehow it seems you think it's a problem)
you will need to cut the engine's power for a split second;
and that requires a quickshift module (can be home made if you know how to tackle the electronics the mechanics of such are easy really).

the weight on the front wheels is important on mini buggies like your hammerhead;
too light and it will understeer like a hovercraft... you wouldn't want that.

your previous post had me wonder a bit..

2 "sturdy" adults

I took that as you and your wife, no?
and "sturdy" doesn't sound "weak" to me which then makes that whole discussion obsolete..
No no.. I'm not questioning your judgement, but it messes with my mental image


The cent clutch doesn't make any sense to me tbh..
what's the benefit of having one?
you cannot just stay in first/second gear all day (otherwise the 'unable to shift' in corners is obsolete as well) and being unable to push a foot pedal sounds super odd to me,
how would one actuate the brake then?

IDK, I can't imagine what you are trying to achieve with that
the TC would've kinda made sense someway or another for a lazy or untrained driver..
but a clutch?? just to remove a foot pedal?
I cannot see the point in that really.

I mean wow 500 lbs is a number that likely exceeds the max passenger load of your buggy already (the Hammerhead GTS 150's max load is 415lbs!)
with it's 515 lbs of curb weight exceeding the 1000lbs mark; I agree..
it will steer hard on soft terrain;
maybe try some more air in the tires and check for proper Ackermann geometry.
every little bit counts I guess

best of luck

'sid

PS if you have a motorcycle race track near you, maybe you can find a used quickshifter for cheap from a wrecked bike... just saying

 

[TheInspiredFool]

LOL..... wow....... SMH.......

 

[anickode]

I envision this working out like this:

First gear: doesn't spin fast enough to engage the primary clutch

Second gear: doesn't spin fast enough to engage the primary clutch

Third gear: spins fast enough to engage the primary, but not fast enough to get it to fully shift out

Fourth gear: spins fast enough at idle to engage the primary clutch

Obviously without actually doing it, there's no way to predict EXACTLY what's going to happen, but it really just boils down to this: it's not meant to work that way. Any vehicle out there with more than one gear AND a torque converter have the gearbox AFTER the clutch, and are meant to be driven as an automatic, with the different gears simply being high/low range.

I really think though, that if you get it to the point where it behaves as an automatic so your wife can drive it, it's going to ruin the fun for you. Essentially, you'd have to just leave it in 3rd or 4th gear all the time, and pretend the other gears and clutch didn't exist.

 

[TheInspiredFool]

Thanks, anickode. I agree. We only use 1st and second gears only anyway because our yard is small. I was going to gear it up from the motorcycle output sprocket to the jackshaft on the drive clutch so it would spin faster. Along with that I was going to get either a very weak springs so the clutch engages at a lower rpm. As long as it allows them to drive it then I'm happy. I would rather them have the thrill of driving it than just me. We just putter around our little yard... As long as we can continue to putter around but have it like an automatic then that's all I'm looking to do. If they could just drive around in one gear and hit a max of 15mph without having to try to mess with the clutch lever taking off, stopping or stalling then I would be a happy camper.

As it stands now I'm the only one that likes to drive it. If I'm going to be the only one driving it and want it to be fun for me I would just switch it with the spare 600cc crotch rocket engine I have. I'm just looking to get by until I can finish up the old gokart I have with a new 6.5hp and get a reverse box on it for them.

 

[anickode]

Yeah

Torque converters get tuned on a specific rpm range. If you tuned it to work well in any one gear as an automatic, it's just going to be a steaming pile of crap in any other gear.

 

[TheInspiredFool]

I was hoping to get 2 useful gears. One that engaged the clutch lower in the rpm range for lighter loads and one that engaged it a little higher up in the rpm range to accommodate the heavier loads. If reverse doesn't work with it then I have to go another route anyway. Maybe I will just wait to get the little gokart up and running for them.

I got the Hammerhead with the engine for $150 so I was hoping to have it work well for everyone since it has reverse, rollcage, hydraulic brakes, 2 seats, good power and tq and electric start. The only thing missing is an automatic-like trans and a little easier steering.