Calling all machinists! Just 1 little question!

[Rustydog2010]

Currently in the process of doing a full rebuild on my '04, RMZ250 after it collapsed a crank bearing.

Wanting to do it probably, while the cases are split, all bearings will be replaced. I have a problem with two of them. Unable to justify OEM retail of $100+ each for these bearings. I have sourced replacement SKF bearings. ($17.80)

The problem is, the two bearings have groves in them, to allow a small tab to overlap and be used as a retainer(Approx 2mmX2mm). SKF were not able to get these. But bearings of what would have been, there orginal size. See the picture attached (Pretty crap, but you get the idea).

So the question, can the bearing be machined to have the grove? If not, i'll just use the bearing without the retainer. Just using loctite retaining compound.

We have a lathe at home, and there is a full machine shop at work. So access to the equipment isnt hard. Would ask them, but would have to wait till monday. Might get a quicker answer here.

Any help is much appreciated!

Not mine, but gives you an idea.

 

[landuse]

I am sure it could be done, but maybe hang on for someone who REALLY knows. Instead of machining the whole bearing, you could somehow just do something to those 2 spots on the bearing where the retainers will go

 

[Rustydog2010]

Thanks landuse. I also thought of that, maybe just use the mill to nip a little bit off. Might try that tomorrow on one of the old ones. Would prefer to not destroy tooling thou... Haha.

 

[Half-breeder]

If you happen to have one near you... or I 'think' you can order online... this is where I get my bearings(I actually goto the office here in town, called Applied Technologies)...and they are really good priced(I believe they actually make em, if I remember correctly).

If you run into a time when you need a sprocket and cant find the right one for the next day... I use Grainger for sprockets. I have a online shopping phobia... so I call up the store n get it shipped to the store the next day(no extra charge).

....just thought Id interject those links...

 

[fowler]

don't see why u cant just remove a little bit as landuse said

bearing really arnt that hard

im sure u have checked
but do the SKF bearings meet the same load and rpm specs?

does the groove need to be there for the outside of the case where the bearing seats?

 

[itsid]

So the original RMZ250 crank bearing SET (2 bearings) is 43 Euro (58 USD)
http://www.melahn.de/product_info.p...LS-Lagerkit-Kurbelwelle-KX-RMZ-250-04-06.html

check your retailer, his prices are a bit steep
you should not order in the webshop above, since he wants another 50€ for shipping to the US
but there are sellers on ebay who sell those kits for $58 too, even in the US.
or here:
http://www.allballsracing.com/24-1081.html
(AFAIK all balls uses KOYO bearings for their kits.. which I believe are OEM for Kawasaki)

And, SKF does have cages with grooved edges
this for example is a SKF 6306 NR

ID: 30 mm
OD: 72 mm
width: 19 mm

unfortunately I don't now the size you need, so this is just a random bearing

'sid

 

[Jimmy_B]

I am a tool maker and I would not recommend modifying your bearing. The races are hard and will be prone to fracturing where you cut the groove. Standard high speed tooling won't cut it, you'll need carbide. I could be wrong, I have been before, but is saving a couple of bucks worth the cost to you if it fails?

Good luck with your rebuild!

 

[Rustydog2010]

If you happen to have one near you... or I 'think' you can order online... this is where I get my bearings(I actually goto the office here in town, called Applied Technologies)...and they are really good priced(I believe they actually make em, if I remember correctly).

Yep, SKF used to sell to the public, but have recently stopped. Now Applied Technologies are the retailer. Thats who I actually got the bearings off. Here in New Zealand.

im sure u have checked
but do the SKF bearings meet the same load and rpm specs?

does the groove need to be there for the outside of the case where the bearing seats?

Yea, that was my first question. They rated to 15krpm. Plenty for a four stroke 250. That lip is only there for the little retainer plate, nothing else.

So the original RMZ250 crank bearing SET (2 bearings) is 43 Euro (58 USD)
http://www.melahn.de/product_info.p...LS-Lagerkit-Kurbelwelle-KX-RMZ-250-04-06.html

check your retailer, his prices are a bit steep
you should not order in the webshop above, since he wants another 50€ for shipping to the US
but there are sellers on ebay who sell those kits for $58 too, even in the US.
or here:
http://www.allballsracing.com/24-1081.html
(AFAIK all balls uses KOYO bearings for their kits.. which I believe are OEM for Kawasaki)

And, SKF does have cages with grooved edges
unfortunately I don't now the size you need, so this is just a random bearing

'sid

I have new crank bearings, they are just plain old bearings. These are for the output shaft in the transmission. So they are not as common as crank bearings.

All of the bearings that I pulled out, were NTN bearings. But I struggled to find a supplier here in New Zealand.

I am a tool maker and I would not recommend modifying your bearing. The races are hard and will be prone to fracturing where you cut the groove. Standard high speed tooling won't cut it, you'll need carbide. I could be wrong, I have been before, but is saving a couple of bucks worth the cost to you if it fails?

Good luck with your rebuild!

Yea, I think I will defiantly source some more advise from the guys in the machine shop. See what there opinions are. Cheers.

 

[itsid]

Oh, sorry, didn't payed attention to your location

can you tell me the part# of the bearing you need ?

the most expensive bearings in the picture are 92045 :K9204-50052 47,33€ at this retailer
all others are cheaper than that.

'sid

 

[Rustydog2010]

It will be 92045A and 92045E.

Even at 50euro thats still $80NZD, plus the shipping. Shipping to New Zealand will be pretty expensive and lonnng.

 

[machinist@large]

The things I miss because life keeps getting in the way....

OK, simple stuff first.....

H-B, Applied Industrial Technologies is a supply house that provides highly in depth technical support; they do not manufacture most, if any of the product lines they rep for.

That being said, they know who to call if they don't know the answers themselves, and (HOLY WOW!!!!) they're usually willing to place the call for you, on their dime.

So, Rusty, you're saying Applied has gone global, and the fliers never made it off the (former) bosses desk? As far as modifying your new bearings, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that you just need to get the keepers to fit flush in their pockets. Am I correct, or have I missed something?

If it's just to get the keepers to fit flush, I'd modify the keepers long before I would even think about risking some pricey bearings. The odds of being able to keep the swarf generated by any process you might try out of the raceways and balls are extremely remote (one speck of grinding dust = death of bearing(s)), whereas you can modify the keeper tabs with the bearings being locked up in your clean room.....

The reason you're having trouble fining the perfect match for your old parts is fairly simple; Suzuki basically went out and special ordered the originals built to their spec just to keep people like you (or me, or probably a majority of the members around here) who actually have a clue which direction you need to turn a screw to remove it from doing what you are trying to do; fix it yourself without having to mortgage or sell your internal organs.....

The really critical thing to remember is that the actual stack upof all the dimensions needs to be as close as possible with the new parts as the old ones. To tight, and something will burn almost immediately; to loose, and the assembly will try to beat itself to death.

If you've made it this far, and haven't done anything rash with your new bearings, then I'm personally giving you full support. Take your time, don't rush it.....

Pat

 

[Rustydog2010]

OK, simple stuff first.....

H-B, Applied Industrial Technologies is a supply house that provides highly in depth technical support; they do not manufacture most, if any of the product lines they rep for.

That being said, they know who to call if they don't know the answers themselves, and (HOLY WOW!!!!) they're usually willing to place the call for you, on their dime.

So, Rusty, you're saying Applied has gone global, and the fliers never made it off the (former) bosses desk? As far as modifying your new bearings, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that you just need to get the keepers to fit flush in their pockets. Am I correct, or have I missed something?

If it's just to get the keepers to fit flush, I'd modify the keepers long before I would even think about risking some pricey bearings. The odds of being able to keep the swarf generated by any process you might try out of the raceways and balls are extremely remote (one speck of grinding dust = death of bearing(s)), whereas you can modify the keeper tabs with the bearings being locked up in your clean room.....

The reason you're having trouble fining the perfect match for your old parts is fairly simple; Suzuki basically went out and special ordered the originals built to their spec just to keep people like you (or me, or probably a majority of the members around here) who actually have a clue which direction you need to turn a screw to remove it from doing what you are trying to do; fix it yourself without having to mortgage or sell your internal organs.....

The really critical thing to remember is that the actual stack upof all the dimensions needs to be as close as possible with the new parts as the old ones. To tight, and something will burn almost immediately; to loose, and the assembly will try to beat itself to death.

If you've made it this far, and haven't done anything rash with your new bearings, then I'm personally giving you full support. Take your time, don't rush it.....

Pat

Thanks Pat.

As I said, they have taken over SKF, that used to sell to the public. I think they(SKF) are just wholesale now. The warehouse were I went is the largest in NZ for bearings. Luckily its one building down from our workshop.

Applied Industrial Technologies acquired its first branch locations in New Zealand as Applied Industrial Technologies Limited (CN 1819) - formerly SKF New Zealand LTd in 2012.

Network Includes:
8 branches throughout New Zealand provide bearings, seals, lubrication products, and power transmission products.

Feel abit embarrassed to say, I didn't even think of modifying the retainers. Thats a great idea. Will just need to confirm that there will be no interference. Hopefully this will be my answer.

Oh, I realise the games that manufactures play. To make it as hard as possible for anyone to do anything. They want the repeat custom, so they can snag you a second time!

 

[itsid]

It will be 92045A and 92045E.

Even at 50euro thats still $80NZD, plus the shipping. Shipping to New Zealand will be pretty expensive and lonnng.

92045A : K9204-50020 46,43€
92045E : K9204-50051 26,66€

I'll try to find a source near you (Australia or NZ if possible) gimme a minute

Thanks Pat.

As I said, they have taken over SKF, that used to sell to the public. I think they(SKF) are just wholesale now.

SKF hasn't been taken over by nobody!
SKF is still a swedish company with it's headquarters in Sweden
(Svenska KullagerFabriken)
Lokal branches are still common
(like the german in Schweinfurt since 1907)

SKF NZ may have been shut down (because of unknown reasons) and is now served by SKF AU
managed by the Group Headquarter in Göteborg Sweden.

just check skf.com

'sid

[EDIT]
Well according to their website
all orders above 80 include free shipping
http://www.motosport.com/NZ/motorcycle/oem-parts/SUZUKI/2006/RMZ250/CRANKCASE?mmy_source=oem

92045A K9204-50020 BEARING-BALL,TM-SX04B13CM NZD 63.32
92045E K9204-51123 BEARING-BALL,#628 NZD 21.05

NZD 84.37

Sorry, that's not as cheap as I hoped it would be, but still not bad.

[EDIT II]
Sooo...

that engine is 100% identical to the Kawasaki KX250F (I think even the bike is)
Anyway.. the bearing you're looking for is (at least in my area) almost HALF the price of the bearing for the suzuki *shrugs*
92045A 24,66€ (see)
92045E 23,48€ (well.. still cheaper)

And now for the original part numbers.
92045A: 92045.0020
92045E: 92045.1123
(see what they did.. )

So, you might want to ask your kawasaki repairshop for bearings
or directly here
http://www.kawasaki.co.nz/

partsmonster.co.nz lists the parts, but is more expensive than the suzuki parts at motorsport.com
http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche...13&make=kawasakidb&a=164&b=9&c=0&d=-CRANKCASE

92045A 92045-0020 BEARING, BALL, TM, SX04B13CM 1 NZD 69.99
92045E 92045-1297 BEARING, BALL, SX04A74 1 NZD 32.99

*shrugs* that's odd...

Okay, I'm out.

 

[machinist@large]

Thanks Pat.

As I said, they have taken over SKF, that used to sell to the public. I think they(SKF) are just wholesale now. The warehouse were I went is the largest in NZ for bearings. Luckily its one building down from our workshop.

I'm not as "in the loop" as I was a couple of years ago; I do know that I've worked on a couple of machines since then where the bearings came from the machine's OEM; here in the States, SKF appears to still be an independent outfit...

Feel abit embarrassed to say, I didn't even think of modifying the retainers. Thats a great idea. Will just need to confirm that there will be no interference. Hopefully this will be my answer.

I wouldn't feel to bad; the first time I came to that decision point was trying to fit a new set of spindle bearings to a small, but very chunky milling machine. The bosses were having a fit about how the $600.00 in bearings we had bought wouldn't fit because of things like you're facing. When I asked if they would mind if I experimented with things like your keeper tabs, since we could make them in house, I went from being the whipping boy, to a progressive thinker..... In the ~ 16 years since then? Have you ever had a customer hand you a stack of bearings in boxes, where the entire stack takes up the ~ space of a 16 oz ceramic coffee cup (fits in the palm of your hand) and razzes you "no pressure, but we just spent $35.000.00 for those? Are you sure you can put it back together?"

And people wonder how I can go back to being "Just" a machinist/ operator....

Oh, I realise the games that manufactures play. To make it as hard as possible for anyone to do anything. They want the repeat custom, so they can snag you a second time!

Yeah, it when they try to reinvent the wheel, for no other reason than to prove they're ....

Pat

 

[Rustydog2010]

Thanks heaps Sid, thats a lot of effort you have gone to.

Yea, may have not been clear before. SKF were once selling their products to the NZ public. Applied technology now sells SKF bearings to the public. Thats only here in NZ, not sure about the rest of the world

 

[J_Walker]

I think sid should change his name to "Icangoogle"

 

[machinist@large]

Thanks heaps Sid, thats a lot of effort you have gone to.

Yea, may have not been clear before. SKF were once selling their products to the NZ public. Applied technology now sells SKF bearings to the public. Thats only here in NZ, not sure about the rest of the world

So they used to market their products on their own in your part of the world? If so, it would probably explain why they have contracted with Applied to serve as one of their distributors....

I think sid should change his name to "Icangoogle"

J, while I can see the joke, I think you are probably selling 'Sid's knowledge and skills extremely short. I know for a fact that he could blow me away as far as computer skills; I also know that he and I have sparred over who's fact's were correct, and I came away with the impression that he has the personal knowledge and experience to back up his computer skills.....

 

[OzFab]

J, while I can see the joke, I think you are probably selling 'Sid's knowledge and skills extremely short. I know for a fact that he could blow me away as far as computer skills; I also know that he and I have sparred over who's fact's were correct, and I came away with the impression that he has the personal knowledge and experience to back up his computer skills.....

Although I too can use google (& quite often do), I wouldn't be a total moron without it; skills & knowledge are learned, ability & intelligence you're born with...

 

[itsid]

Thank you guys!

I didn't feel offended by Johns post though (should I?)

regarding the topic he's more or less correct
I did know the RMZ250 is a Suzuki dirtbike,
and I do know sources for parts around in my area and the internet for Suzuki parts
(because I had a Suzuki once) but that's about it...

I had no idea, that it is the same engine as a Kawaski Kx250F;
and I do know nothing about shops & sources in New Zealand or Australia for obvious reasons
So search engines have been used of course.

Since googles "approximate results" have been introduced I have the impression that some people struggle to find good matches within the results without using proper boolean search. And I was trying to help...
But that's a different topic

Let's just get Rusty's engine fixed, since that's the important part of this topic

'sid

 

[Rustydog2010]

Yep, 2004-2006 RMZ250 were made by Kawasaki and as Sid said, are the same as the KX250F.

Just picked up a 2006 RMZ250 engine. Has gearbox problems, worn selectors and dog gears. Has a good clutch basket, oil pump idler gear and crankshaft. Which I need as mine was destroyed when the bearing collapsed. The '04 also cracked the case, which is supposedly a problem with pretty much all RMZ's. Will use the case off the '06, just to be safe.

As for the bearings, one will be fine using the standard retainer. The other I will just use loctite, retaining compound. This is what was suggested by the machine shop, plus the Engine shop supervisor was also happy with that, gives me great confidence.