building a 5hp flathead to run 7k rpm

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solomon

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So the story goes, someone doesn't believe that a 5hp b&s flathead will run 7k rpm. So I'm going to build one myself so it can speak for itself. Looking for any tips of advise, and input is much wanted and appreciated.

I know a stock internal dual bushed flathead can do 5500rpm all day long after removing gov, and throwing an exhaust spring in the intake.
So the next step would be an arc billet rod, bumping compression, cam and lifters and an arc billet flywheel. And springs for the cam of course. I plan to use a dual bearing block ported intake exhaust, straight exhaust,and a Mikuni carb. I will also have the lifter bore welded, have I missed anything?

Thanks for viewing!
 

Poboy kartman

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Ummmm- Nitrous oxide? Or maybe nitro-methane. ...:lolgoku:

One thing I wonder about is the oil slinger. And clearances- might want to open that con rod a bit.....

Anyway- this should be interesting. ....:popcorn:
 

solomon

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Methane for sure, and as soon as I get the rod I will check clearances, thanks for the input!
 

vpd66

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Ummmm- Nitrous oxide? Or maybe nitro-methane. ...:lolgoku:

One thing I wonder about is the oil slinger. And clearances- might want to open that con rod a bit.....

Anyway- this should be interesting. ....:popcorn:

ARC billet rod will have the oil dipper and rod cap machined from 1 piece. No worry about it breaking. Run .003 clearance on the connecting rod.your build sounds good. I would put dual valve springs in it , but it all depends on the cam you choose. I raced 5hp flatheads back in the early 90s and built my own motors. Your build looks like it will be fine to me.
 

solomon

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Thanks for the reassurance vpd66. On another note, which cam would you recommend and how high of a lift should I go for? Thanks again!
 

Poboy kartman

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The height of the lift is not the issue, what matters is the duration of the lift...

Welllllll- somewhat. .....Actually performance cams usually do both. I speak more from automotive experience here but in general terms.....An internal combustion engine is basically an air pump- the more air you can get it to move the better the performance. ...

So basically- you want bigger-right? Bigger valves- overbored cylinders-better flowing exhaust.......So....with cams-there are 2 ways to get more air into the combustion chamber. ....Open the valve higher (more lift) or keep it open longer (duration)..... Basically like taking one big deep breath or sucking through your teeth for a long time. ....So cam recommendations always have to be tied to the total engine set-up .

EDIT: So after all this rambling. ....I would think that if you are serious about the nitro-methane. ..you would want the highest duration cam you could find. .....To put it all in perspective. ...if you take a little black powder and light it....POOF!!!!!! Take some smokeless powder and it burns much slower. ....But smokeless powder cartridges are much more powerful than black powder ones...That's because the charge builds up pressures much longer as the bullet is traveling down the barrel.....This becomes really apparent when watching a nitro fueler at night and seeing how much fuel is burning AFTER it leaves the engine. ....
 

itsid

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both yes.. but I think mainly because the cam needs to have a perfect egg-shape [not just oval ;)];
therefor if it's wider (longer duration) it needs to be taller (greater lift) and the other way around.

'sid
 

vpd66

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Thanks for the reassurance vpd66. On another note, which cam would you recommend and how high of a lift should I go for? Thanks again!

I can't recommend a cam without knowing what rpm range (other then revving to 7000 rpm) your wanting to run the motor in. Also what is this going on? How heavy is it? How much other modifications do you want to do to the motor? They make stock lift cams that will make power to 7000 rpm.
 

Poboy kartman

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both yes.. but I think mainly because the cam needs to have a perfect egg-shape [not just oval ;)];
therefor if it's wider (longer duration) it needs to be taller (greater lift) and the other way around.

'sid

Actually- no.....To start with- the ramp side (that lifts the valve) is pretty much always steeper than the side that closes it.

I understand your thinking and there is some truth to it- however. ...that mainly applies to commercially ground generic cams. There's some debate among custom cam grinders as to whether high lift/short duration or lower lift/long duration is the way to go.... (again- this is V-8 engines)....but the dyno results from the high lift/ short duration engines and the fuel efficiency were impressive.

So again- the egg shape comes from the fact the generic cams are designed to perform in the widest range possible and are ground that way as a compromise.
 

itsid

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I'm speaking about the mechanical issue only ..
the eggshape keeps the pushrod (or valve) in contact even on higher revs.. whereas a sudden in- or decrease in size would "bump" the pushrod which isn't exactly a "controlled movement", or worse lock it.

I don't think it needs to be a specific ratio (height to width) so there is indeed room to work with (a little wider or taller doesn't matter much)....
but in the end there's a limit
you cannot increase the lift over a certain point without increasing the duration.
a simple mechanical issue.
Otherwise the cam would try to push the rod sideways not up.

Thinking of it.. I think you could however have a long duration without increasing the lift -mechanically- just not the other way around.

'sid
 

solomon

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Honestly I want high lift because I want the excuse to mill the head down. I'm not looking to put this motor in competition use or anything, honestly it'll prob sit on a shelf until I want a new toy. I'd like the power band to be in the 4-8k range as well.
 

Poboy kartman

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Honestly I want high lift because I want the excuse to mill the head down. I'm not looking to put this motor in competition use or anything, honestly it'll prob sit on a shelf until I want a new toy. I'd like the power band to be in the 4-8k range as well.

Wait.....What? You lost me there....High lift= valve to head contact or valve to piston contact.... ( depending on whether it's OHV or flat-top) but either way. ....milling the head will decrease the clearance.....

Of course- there are so many variables that we could go on with this forever- but what is your thinking behind that statement? I mean. ..I can kinda see where you could say since you are milling the head- you want higher lift and less duration to keep compression under control- but then why mill in the first place?

So- just to touch on what we have touched on. ....lift allows a lot of charge in a short time frame- duration how long the engine sucks in the charge....so now we come to timing....when the valve opens and closes..... ( and overlap, ect....)

So again- another variable in cam design.....So in simple terms or theory....the intake valve is closed at TDC and the charge is ignited -initializing the power stroke...at BDC- the exhaust valve opens and the spent charge is expelled as the piston returns to TDC-at which point the intake valve opens, allowing a fresh charge to enter as the piston returns to BDC. Then the intake valve closes and allows the piston to compress the charge on the way up to complete the cycle.

However-that's not really what happens. The intake valve will open sometime before TDC-allowing the vacuum of the exiting exhaust charge to suck in a greater amount of charge than the piston just travelling down. . Conversely- this also helps in clearing the spent exhaust. ...

So both valves are open at the same time (overlap)....

Anyway- this is why you get interference between valves and piston.

So all this and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. ....Now a cam recommendation for a performance small block Ford - I could help you with- what you are doing. ..specifically, I'm almost clueless. ...

However- I can tell you that generally speaking-the more duration- the higher the rpm of the powerband and 'sid's point is very valid concerning lift and duration- which is why roller cams can sport a much more radical lobe profile than hydraulic flat tappets in cars.....
 

solomon

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I was referring to mill as the actual machine, I wanted to use a manual mill and cut a pocket into the head for high valve clearance and to cut a fire slot and resurface will I'm at it, like I said just an excuse to use the mill
 

Poboy kartman

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I was referring to mill as the actual machine, I wanted to use a manual mill and cut a pocket into the head for high valve clearance and to cut a fire slot and resurface will I'm at it, like I said just an excuse to use the mill

Ahhhh- Gotcha....You know. ...While some will catch the valve reliefs...not too many have a clue what a fire slot is......I'm getting more impressed and liking you more all the time. ......

Keep on keeping on......:popcorn:
 

JonathanEngr

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This is all waaaaaay beyond my skill level, I would love to hear what a fire slot is. I do know what a valve relief is... did some tinkering on 350 chevy engines back in my day. But only replacement parts--never did any machining.

Now I'm waiting to see someone add an NOS canister and/or turbocharge their kart! LOL!
 

exenos

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This is all waaaaaay beyond my skill level, I would love to hear what a fire slot is. I do know what a valve relief is... did some tinkering on 350 chevy engines back in my day. But only replacement parts--never did any machining.

Now I'm waiting to see someone add an NOS canister and/or turbocharge their kart! LOL!

There was a guy who turbo'd his 5hp honda a few years back. 10lbs of boost rings a bell.

EDIT: Sorry about the semi off topic post.
 

Poboy kartman

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This is all waaaaaay beyond my skill level, I would love to hear what a fire slot is. I do know what a valve relief is... did some tinkering on 350 chevy engines back in my day. But only replacement parts--never did any machining.

Now I'm waiting to see someone add an NOS canister and/or turbocharge their kart! LOL!

The reason you don't know what a fire slot is is because it only applies to flathead engines. It's basically carving a path from the the combustion chamber to the valves in the head.
 

Lynxer

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Im sure my "mild" 5hp flathead briggs spins 6k+?

Raptor Rod
Pz20 carb
Eyebrow shaved
Straight header

Everything else is stock. (cool bore bushing block)

Its not safe to run the stock flywheels this high.. Its not really a "rider" type engine.. GO fast, wont last..(especially a bushing block) I haven't ridden the bike its on yet.. Probably wont see many hours on the engine. Wouldn't want to scratch the paint :thumbsup:


Video (half throttle'ish and idle):


 
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